Re: wraping text
From: NewGuy (NewGuy.13k4em_at_nospam.WordForums.com)
Date: 03/22/04
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Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 01:14:55 -0600
Jean-Guy,
Hey, that is so cool—you have the same middle name as me!
Perhaps (not an opinion, but merely a suggestion), what you and Ms.
Barnhill fail to realize is that neither the original poster Kevin, nor
myself wants to know what Microsoft Word cannot do, but rather what it
CAN. Your expertise was requested in helping to resolve the problem
posted, but instead you have done nothing but provide rhetoric and
commentary.
It is unfortunate that you felt so compelled to set me straight and to
defend your comrade, that you completely missed the entire point of my
post. You so aptly interpreted the tone of my message as bitter, yet
you did not realize, or perhaps (there’s that word again) more
accurately, chose to ignore, the condescending attitude your
compatriot, Ms. Barnhill used in addressing Kevin's problem.
If you had been more conscious of the issue instead of the defense of
your fellow "MVP," perhaps (oops, I did it again) a resolution could be
proffered.
> That is not the way forms and tables work…
That's all fine and dandy that Ms. Barnhill—and now you, have explained
that tables do not work that way, but frankly, nobody asked either one
of you how tables work, just a way to make Microsoft Word do what we
want it to do.
> … when people fill out a form by hand, you have to provide a fix
amount of space, if they run out, they can start writing in the
margins, or writing very small, or writing on the back...
I never mentioned that I wanted to be able to write in the margins, or
type as much as I want into the fields. In fact, that is completely
irrelevant, as are so many of the opinions you so eloquently express
here. I only said that I want to be able to fill in a form
electronically and be able to have only one form for both electronic
and manual text entry. And, I want the text to wrap to the next line as
I reach my limit, just the same way it does when I type in a text field
in a web browser, or a line of text in (Gasp!) a word processor, such
as Microsoft Word.
> … we see too often in the newsgroup is that people want to impose a
paper mentality to the computer medium, often because their
old-fashioned bosses who do not know anything about computers have
decided that it would be so. Anyway, this is what I have seen time and
time again...
Your analogy here is not even remotely accurate or relevant to what I
am talking about. First of all, it is not my “old-fashioned boss” who
wants to accomplish this task, but it is myself and my co-workers that
wish to do so. Secondly, you most assuredly don’t even realize (or
care) that you have not only just insulted my boss, but you have also
offended me in the process, as you are suggesting that I do not know
anything about computers either, since I am the one who wants to create
such a form. This is NOT about your opinions of why we should or should
not have an electronic form that works like a paper form, it is NOT
about whether you think we are working for bosses that are
"old-fashioned," but it IS about helping to find a solution to a
problem that has been presented to you.
> … Once you have produce a form for people to fill out on the
computer, it is very easy to make a second one to be filled out by
hand…
Obviously, you didn’t understand what I said in my initial post, so it
bears repeating: “… Rather than having to create two separate
documents, one for manual data entry and one for [electronic] data
entry, it would be far more efficient to have [one] document...” In
other words, no matter how “easy” it is, we DON’T want two separate
forms, just one.
> …if you are dedicated to having both (paper/computer forms) looking
the same. That means that you have to use one text formfield per cell
and tell users to tab to the next field when they get to the end of a
field…
Tabbing from one table cell to the next is hardly an elegant solution,
but is instead a clumsy workaround. And once again, your analogy just
doesn’t work.
> …they are all equally painful if you want a decent result (i.e.
identical to pen/paper)...
Who asked for a result identical to pen/paper? Are you reading the same
forum threads as I am?
> Here are two examples of what I mean by "painful": In fact, there is
a very simple way to do that: Use Underlining...
Again, this comes nowhere close to resolving the issue. Having each
word underline as you type means that no lines exist to begin with.
That is no good for users who are handwriting the form.
> Another "simple" way is to use paragraph borders, but you have to
tell your users to hit "Enter" at the end of every line. So it is
difficult to have consistent results because more often then not,
people will forget. I mean you are not supposed to hit Enter at the end
of every line...
How would hitting “Enter” be any more difficult than hitting “Tab,” as
you suggested earlier?
Of course it is simple when you compare it to using a pen and paper.
But to ask a machine to reproduce something we take for granted is not
always so simple. Just ask Sony (or is it Sanyo? Hitachi?) who just
spent decades and millions of dollars to create a decent walking robot
(2 legs, like us). It is so simple, walking....
Do you realize what an absurd comparison this is? How on earth can you
possibly compare recreating the movements of a living, breathing being
to the recreation of a paper document in electronic format? This is yet
another "mystery" that needs to be solved.
> In the end, software developers have to set priorities, this is why
each software has its strengths and weaknesses. But I bet that making
their software behave identically to using a pen and paper is not very
high on their list…
Once again, we are not talking about what the advantages and
disadvantages are, nor are we talking about what is high or low on the
list of priorities for the software developers. But since you brought
it up, Microsoft Word has been in existence since around November 1983,
nearly 21 years—I guess you’re right, the software programmers haven’t
had enough time to perfect it yet. Furthermore, if a software developer
is designing a program with the intent of it being capable of creating
forms, it seems logical then, that they should be taking steps toward
making it as complete in those feature sets as possible. If not, then
they are doing an injustice to those that wish to use certain
“features,” only to become frustrated when they realize a certain
action is not possible.
> I mean can your pen/paper calculate the tax every time you finish
writing number in a column? Will it let you to write your name at the
beginning of mthe first page and then automatically insert it on every
page?…
Actually, yes I do believe that I CAN indeed calculate pretty much
anything I want each and every time I finish writing a number in a
column. And believe it or not, I CAN write my name at the beginning of
the first page, then “automatically” program myself to do so on every
succeeding page. Amazing, eh?
> Why so bitter here?
Not bitter at all. Just don’t understand why when you “MVPs” are asked
a question, you give oratory. It would be like me going to the doctor
with a headache and having him give me a lesson on how they make the
aspirin that he is about to prescribe. (How’s that for an analogy?)
>The newsgroups are a community service where people can exchange views
and ideas, not just get dry answers to curtly stated problems, although
sometimes that also happens, and that's OK.
I didn’t realize that either Kevin or I were being curt in our
questions. In fact, I do believe that we both clearly and concisely
stated the problem but received a curtly stated answer.
> Suzanne's comment was somethingI had myself wondered about very
often, we see that question all the time in the newsgroups.
Since you see this same question “all the time in the newsgroups,” it
would seem that as “Microsoft MVP,” it is your obligation and
responsibility to pass this information along to Microsoft so that they
can fix this problem, rather than you just telling folks like Kevin and
me that we should just forget about trying to do something because it
can’t be done and software developers have other priorities.
> So why should she, or anyone for that matter, not write a few
comments when they feel like it? As long as it is respectful, what is
the harm in that?
So condescension is respectful? Jean-Guy, it is clear that my comments
to Ms. Barnhill struck a chord with you, so hopefully you will see that
although her initial response was not directed to me, it came across to
me as extremely condescending and arrogant. Go back and re-read it, if
you don’t believe me, then have your friends read it too and ask them
what they think. By the way, it WAS my intention in the closing remarks
of my first post, to make the point that I felt Ms. Barnhill’s response
was inappropriate, but it seems that perhaps (sorry, can’t seem to stop
using that word) I was a bit too subtle. But I had also hoped to help
clarify what Kevin was saying, and to elicit a response to that in the
body of the text. It appears that I failed at that as well.
> This is clearly an opinion ("Perhaps..."). So it is your opinion that
others should not post their opinions?
Actually, the word “perhaps” does not imply opinion, but rather a
suggestion or inquiry. Here is the definition, taken directly from, of
all places, the Microsoft Word dictionary: “per·haps : an adverb
expressing uncertainty, or indicating that something is possibly true
or may possibly happen, often used to make remarks appear LESS
DEFINITE.”
> Have a good day!
You have a good day too, Jean-Guy! :-)
NewGuy
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