Re: Understanding Installation/Use of Programs on TS

compsosinc@xxxxxxxxx wrote on 04 jan 2008 in
microsoft.public.windows.terminal_services:

On Jan 3, 4:02 pm, "Vera Noest [MVP]" <vera.no...@remove-
this.hem.utfors.se> wrote:
Comments inline.

compsos...@xxxxxxxxx wrote on 03 jan 2008 in
microsoft.public.windows.terminal_services:

On Jan 3, 9:02 am, compsos...@xxxxxxxxx wrote:
We are experimenting with a potential setup - using
VirtualPC - for implementing Terminal Services on a network
and have a question about installing/using applications on
the TS. In this experiment, TS is installed on the DC.

I hope that running TS on a DC is only for testing purposes.
This is *not* recommended in a production environment, for both
security and performance reasons!

On the real network we are attempting to mimic, there is an
application installed on the DC that is used for Accounting
purposes. The fat-clients have the program installed locally
and map to the DC for the data. Now this network needs to
add remote thin-clients (cannot install program locally) to
access the program.

So, after TS is installed on this DC:

1. Can both the current clients and the thin-clients use the
program without it being reinstalled or is this specific to
the program in use --or is it 100% related to the design/use
of TS? We cannot experiment here since we do not have this
particular software.

Since the fat clients only use the server as a file server, the
fat clients will not be affected.
But there's no way to predict if your thin clients will be able
to use the application successfully if you do not uninstall it
first, and then reinstall it *after* installing Terminal
Services. By not installing the application in "install mode"
you prevent the server from providing a real multi-user
environment.

2. Will installing TS on this DC "break" any applications
for current clients that access it.

See above. Fat clients should not be affected, they only access
the data and  run the application locally.

3. We can experiment with MS Office 2003 Pro but have a
licensing question. If a properly licensed TS client
connects to the TS for the purpose of using MS Office, and
the client has the same version of Office installed, is any
additional Office license needed?

No. Office licenses are always Per Device, and it doesn't
matter how a device runs Office, as long as the version and
product suite are *exactly* the same. Note that this does *not*
include clients with an OEM version of Office (that came with
the client) since you cannot install an OEM version of Office
on a TS.

4. Since a Thin-client will not have Office installed
locally, we need to purchase an Office license -correct?

Yes. One license per connecting device (not concurrent).

5. We can only experiment with Office 2003 --is anyone aware
of any differences with regards to the above scenario for
Office 2007?

For Office 2007 on a TS: only licenses obtained through the
Microsoft Volume Licensing Program can be deployed.
Details are here:

Licensing of Microsoft Desktop Application Software for Use
with Windows Server Terminal
Serviceshttp://download.microsoft.com/download/1/7
/7/17745e4a-5d31-4de4-
a416-
07c646336d94/desktop_application_with_windows_server_terminal_se
rvi ces.doc

Thanks!

Forgot a question:

6. If applicable, is there a specific error message generated
by TS (Microsoft) when a client attempts to use a program
that was installed prior to installing TS --ie when the
program was not installed in "install mode". Or does the
error come from the program trying to be used.

No. You get the general warning that all programs must be
uninstalled and then re-installed when you install Terminal
Services. If you ignore that warning, all bets are off.
What you can expect is that users will be unable to use
personal application settings, inherit the settings from the
last logged-on user, get access denied errors when they need to
access shared files, and so on. All depends on the type of
application.

_________________________________________________________
Vera Noest
MCSE, CCEA, Microsoft MVP - Terminal Server
TS troubleshooting:  http://ts.veranoest.net
___ please respond in newsgroup, NOT by private email ___

Thank you so much for such a thorough explanation. We are just
testing this type of environment on a VirtualPC setup. However
we have a customer that has been persuaded by their software
vendor (software in question above) that they can run TS on
their DC for these 10 remote thin-clients. The customer plans to
implement a web-based software change with this vendor in the
near future and did not want to invest in a separate TS if they
could get by for now. I spoke with the software vendor about the
use of their software after TS is installed and they said we
would not have to reinstall it since the Pervasive- SQL database
resides on the DC and the client-side of the software is also
installed on the DC.

Thanks again!

I'm sorry, but it sounds to me that the software vendor doesn't
know much about Terminal Services, or server roles in general, for
that matter.

What they are proposing is a single server which runs the DC role,
is an SQL server, a Terminal Server, and runs Office as well (for
the 10 thin clients). This is likely to give you performance
problems. When you install Terminal Services, the server is
internally tuned differently, to give highest priority to
interactive sessions. This is opposite to the optimal tuning of a
DC and an SQL server. And Office is rather resource-hungry as well.
So you could see performance problems on all functions: AD, SQL,
TS. How serious this is going to be depends on the hardware of the
server, the number of connecting users to the SQL database, and
much more.

The vendor is correct in saying that installing TS will not change
the SQL database, so the existing fat clients will not be affected,
as I also wrote. But the front-end application can potentially be
crippled by not installing it while the server is in install mode.
The vendor's argument that it isn't affected because it is
installed on the same server as the database is nonsense, but it is
possible that they *know* that their front-end application doesn't
have any user specific settings anyway, and doesn't use the
registry or any ini-files at all. If that is the case, then it's
possible that the front-end application works normally even after
you install TS, but I wouldn't take the word of the vendor alone
for this without further explanation.

Then there is of course the security problem. You will have 10
users running an interactive session on your DC, treating it like
their personal workstation. Ask yourself if you would feel
comfortable with 10 users in the server room, hacking at the
keyboard of the DC. In very small (max 5-10 total # of users) and
trusty environments, you can do this, but it puts *very* high
demands on your backup and restore procedures. Prepare for a total
screwup of your DC (and if it is your only DC, this means your
whole domain!), and make sure that you know how to restore it from
backup. And keep in mind that you might detect such a problem days
or weeks after the initial screwup, so you would need to be able to
go back a long time to find a good backup.
One such a scenario is if someone would install a 3rd party printer
driver on the TS. Most 3rd party printer drivers are not TS
compatible, and are known to crash the print spooler or the whole
server, which can lead to all kinds of other problems. What
complicates matters is that such driver problems often show
themselves intermittently, and make the server act irratic. So it
usually takes a long time before the problem is pinpointed to the
faulty printer driver. By that time, all of your backups could be
compromized.

So I honestly believe that you are doing your customer a favour by
strongly suggesting to them to invest in a second server. Hardware
costs are the leasts of their costs. I imagine that your consulting
fees on testing this setup are going to be higher than the purchase
of an extra server.
And even after the accounting software has been changed into a web-
based application, they will still have those 10 thin clients who
want to run Office from the TS, correct? Chances are that by then,
they will have thought of a trillion other applications that they
also want to run on the TS.
And if they really don't need the TS function anymore after the
accounting software change, they can use the second server as a
second DC, to add redundancy. A domain with a single DC is a risk
in itself. But of course, all this depends on how big the company
is, and how much downtime of their domain they can tolerate.

_________________________________________________________
Vera Noest
MCSE, CCEA, Microsoft MVP - Terminal Server
TS troubleshooting: http://ts.veranoest.net
___ please respond in newsgroup, NOT by private email ___
.

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