Re: Virtualized SBS / WS /TS

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Thanks a lot to y'all!

Backing up to a mini ethernet connected HDD may be a solution? I see some of
the USB equivalent HDD's now has ethernet connection. I will have my box up
and running soon and one of the first things to test will be the backup.

Over here, sending a fax with your signature has a legal value, it is the
same as mailing a paper letter. Many of my customers and myself want to keep
it. My SBS 2003 has been running the native fax server through an external
USR analog faxmodem (com port) since february 2005. I have not noticed a
single problem. Print to the fax server from almost any application and
receive incoming faxes via Exchange, make a rule to automatically put any
faxes lacking a sender ID, directly in the trash. Simple, old technology,
but useful.

In a small business, I would think it is useful to be able to run security
systems, control systems and others directly from the server. USB comes in
handy in many cases. On the other hand, it seems like a lot of equipment
like that is getting ethernet connections with built in admin servers. Maybe
that will be the future, through copper or wireless. And USB gets akward as
soon as you get a few meters away from the computer. So, regarding SBS and
Hyper-V, I can understand MS holding back on USB and other IO support. But,
for me as a user, it would be convenient to have it.

Regards grandpa


"Charlie Russel - MVP" <charlie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> skrev i en
meddelelse news:OBvC9CkfJHA.4072@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Well, in my office, the server is 5 feet behind me and that's also my
home. :) And yes, that's exactly what I do. But for those who would prefer
to do it as you suggest (and I agree, it's an obvious scenario) the
FabulaTech USB over RDP product is a perfect fit. It does rather more than
the MS USB in RDP that we now have.

--
Charlie.
http://msmvps.com/blogs/xperts64
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/charlie.russel

"SuperGumby [SBS MVP]" <not@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:uwrWUCffJHA.3776@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
whoahh now, that particular form of USB support would still be handled by
the RDP client, correct?

I ain't gonna take my IPod into the office and plug it into a server, so
that I can return home and run the IPod software as a TS Remote App.

"Charlie Russel - MVP" <charlie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:OzfJ5sefJHA.2384@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Backup to USB is the preferred method for SBS 2008. There are additional
uses, especially when you consider that Terminal Services is now an
option in Premium. So, for example, having USB support means my TS
RemoteApp server running in Hyper-V runs my iPod/iTunes. No, that
wouldn't make sense on the main SBS server, but on a Terminal Server,
it's a legitimate usage. Especially if I don't give users a desktop,
just a thin client.

--
Charlie.
http://msmvps.com/blogs/xperts64
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/charlie.russel

"SuperGumby [SBS MVP]" <not@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:u$$ghvcfJHA.1292@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
on the issue of fax I've never considered SBS fax to be anything more
than a convenience.

For the most part (and I worked in the trade, modem manufacturer
Banksia and ZetaFax) even the low end network MFC devices are likely to
be less problematic. Though such differs from Windows fax sending by
using a print driver is normal and some such devices can monitor an
Exchange mailbox used for submission. Receiving you normally get to
file or email, not SharePoint. Final point being that an MFC could also
actually act as scanner for when you really do have a piece of paper in
your hand. Of course, the possibility exists that this would then be
the primary fax device for the office and worth spending a little more
on than 'low end' :-)

Though MS have jumped onboard USB for backup I still don't like USB on
servers. Looks like when I go to 08 I will be recommending imaging to
tape, given the choice of purchasing a standard backup program or one
that does live imaging, purely to get my tape support, I'll go with
imaging.

What other USB requirement would you have for such a system?

"Charlie Russel - MVP" <charlie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
message news:uro3JBbfJHA.4052@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I don't expect any improvement in the USB support question any time
soon. For over a year, they completely and totally ignored those of us
saying we NEEDED a USB solution. They've finally admitted there might
be a use case, but I still don't see it happening any time soon. I'm
annoyed that it requires an addon, but at least we do have a
workaround. As for fax? I'm with you. Just not a major factor any more
here.

--
Charlie.
http://msmvps.com/blogs/xperts64
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/charlie.russel

"kj [SBS MVP]" <KevinJ.SBS@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:%237c9WAafJHA.3388@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
grandpa wrote:
"kj [SBS MVP]" <KevinJ.SBS@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> skrev i en meddelelse
news:uFwbEcZfJHA.5496@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
grandpa wrote:
"kj [SBS MVP]" <KevinJ.SBS@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> skrev i en
meddelelse
news:OfI0bNZfJHA.5328@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
grandpa wrote:
"kj [SBS MVP]" <KevinJ.SBS@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> skrev i en
meddelelse news:%23W7FLVYfJHA.5956@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
grandpa wrote:
Hi y'all

I chose this group again because the SBS is the main SW in
this
setup and the line of thoughts also leads back to the 2003
version. Hope it's ok.
After getting some good advice from this group, I've spent the
last couple of weeks testing various combinations of SBS and
WS's on a single box (HP Proliant ML350 G5). After I got the
DVD's to load on the HP box, everything installs and looks
very
stable. The recommended setup is to run SBS 2008, WS/TS 2008
and the third
server OS as children under Hyper-V and a minimal parent WS
2008
not connected to the domain, maybe with backup as the only
feature. A couple of things, however, make me concerned and
lead to the
question below:
- The minimum system requirements has made a big leap from the
previous OS versions. uP, RAM and HD needs are demanding. A
bare
WS 2008 as Hyper-V parent with a couple of guest OS'es
running,
quickly takes 2.5 to 3 GB RAM for just the parent. My box has
4
Xenon 1.86 MHz cores and a child OS sometimes runs one core
100
% for minutes, with no TS role and no application SW installed
yet. And, the SBS 2008 demands minimum 69 GB HD space just to
install. - Third party software is needed to get USB and
serial
com equipment connected to child OS's under Hyper-V, which
means
extra software and expenses.

I have to admit that when I bought the server box some time
ago, I had the system requirements from the SBS 2003 and WS
2003 in the back of my mind. By now, the HP box has nearly
doubled in price due to adding more capacity. And, to run the
recommended setup,
I may very well have to add even more RAM and still be a
little
short on uP power.
So, to be competitive, it is tempting to look for somewhat
leaner setups with less need for HW resources. One way could
be
to drop Hyper-V for the time being and instead use Virtual
Server 2005 for virtualization. This way I can run SBS 2008
and
VS 2005 as parent and WS 2008/TS and third OS as children.
Positive:
- 2008 version SBS and WS/TS
- Less need for RAM and to some extent other HW resources
- 64 bit SBS
- Full USB and serial com support in SBS
- Parent and child OS's in same domain
Negative:
- 32 bit WS/TS and third OS
- The web based VS 2005 administration

What is your opinion, anyone ? Am I lost here or what ?

It's snowing again, best regards
grandpa

Ignoring continuing supportability of SBS08/VS2005 for the time
being; By ditching Hyper-V, you'll loose the efficiencies of
that
architecture and increase the burden of the hosting OS (SBS08).
Additionally, your guest OS's will run less efficiently
themselves and be limited to 32bit.

MS has stated 2008 will be the last 32bit Server OS. 2008 R2
beta
already is 64 bit only. So, you're kinda painting your self
into
a corner on future technologies.

Is RAM your primary concern on hardware resoruces?

--
/kj


Thanks for reply

I am concerned for both RAM and uP. I feel this demo box is
getting expensive. Original RAM is expensive and new uPs even
more. Next step RAM would be one or two 8 GB sets. It's ok if
the
box would be powerful enough to do a convincing demo with 5 to
10
client PCs, but, I'm not convinced after doing a number of
simple
test installations. I don't want to spend more unless I'm sure
this can serve as a convincing demo. Just wondering if it is a
little early to sell the Hyper-V stuff. In a year or two the
necessary HW is available at a reasonable cost and the Hyper-V
probably has better IO support. Most of my customers don't care
what's inside as long as it works well and is competative in
price, whether it's 32 or 64 bit if you can't see the
difference.
Of course, the whole idea falls apart unless it noticably
reduces
HW requrements. I'm really uncertain on this. Regards grandpa

RAM and IO are the usual constraints and often the first
performance bottle neck encountered. You should easily be able to
accommodate those child partitions & guest OS, with a parent &
Host Hyper-V OS, or GUI& HV Role OS.

Network IO performance can be gained by adding NICs'. Fast disk
subsystems tailored for your Guests OS (SQL/Exchange, etc) and
optimizing the methods for your VHD's & Guest Disks.
(Pass-through,
Fixed, and dynamic in fastest to slowest).

All the HV setups I've done run out of RAM before proc
utilization
bogs it down.

RAM is just the limiter right now (IMHO). Both what you can
afford
and the max your system can handle.

For these, I'd be more inclined to sacrifice a little performance
(for now) than compromise on the architecture.


--
/kj

Thanks again Kevin!

You and Charlie have convinced me, I'll go for the recommended
setup, but will increase the RAM to 18 GB to make sure. I
obviously
misinterpreted the RAM use I saw on the WS 2008 parent. On the
other
hand, the setup with the SBS 2008 / VS 2005 as parent looked good
at
first sight, but that was with no application programs running in
the child.
Best regards grandpa

I seriously doubt you'll be disappointed, and there is much more
ability to fine tune performance across the child/guest OS board.

"Enlightened" (Virtualization aware, 2K8+, Vista, Win7, ) OS run so
much better with Hyper-V !

--
/kj


I had four "best" alternatives on my pad here, two of them with 32
bit child OS's. After this discussion, I will put into practice one.
That is GUI& HV Role 2008 OS as parent and SBS 2008, WS 2008/TS and
third OS as child OS's.
The last few installations has gone without a single error og
warning
message. That by itself is great progress from some years back when
some OS's and Office packs couldn't even get installed by following
the enclosed instructions.

The main drawback with this alternative will be the lack of some IO
support. Some of my customers will not understand why we have to add
extras to this new, great version to be able to connect the fax and
to take backups. I do hope MS will do something with this. But if
the
rest performs well, I think we can handle that for the time being

I think the USB support is a concern and while there are third party
solutions, I too would like to see better MS Hyper-V support for
this.

For backups, there are pass through disks and Server 2008 R2 is
suppose to be "enlightened" further to support dynamic VHD adds and
removes. This should drastically improve the arrangement currently at
hand. (Reminds me, I need to get my lab HV server up on this beta)

For me, FAX is becoming much less of a factor. I know many business
will continue reliance upon FAX for ages to come, but most of mine
are showing less interest and business necessity for it.



30 years + with one leg in this business has made me cautious, it
feels so good to get advice from all of you in this situation.
Thanks!

grandpa

--
/kj








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