Re: Virtualized SBS / WS /TS

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I don't expect any improvement in the USB support question any time soon. For over a year, they completely and totally ignored those of us saying we NEEDED a USB solution. They've finally admitted there might be a use case, but I still don't see it happening any time soon. I'm annoyed that it requires an addon, but at least we do have a workaround. As for fax? I'm with you. Just not a major factor any more here.

--
Charlie.
http://msmvps.com/blogs/xperts64
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/charlie.russel

"kj [SBS MVP]" <KevinJ.SBS@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:%237c9WAafJHA.3388@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
grandpa wrote:
"kj [SBS MVP]" <KevinJ.SBS@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> skrev i en meddelelse
news:uFwbEcZfJHA.5496@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
grandpa wrote:
"kj [SBS MVP]" <KevinJ.SBS@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> skrev i en meddelelse
news:OfI0bNZfJHA.5328@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
grandpa wrote:
"kj [SBS MVP]" <KevinJ.SBS@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> skrev i en
meddelelse news:%23W7FLVYfJHA.5956@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
grandpa wrote:
Hi y'all

I chose this group again because the SBS is the main SW in this
setup and the line of thoughts also leads back to the 2003
version. Hope it's ok.
After getting some good advice from this group, I've spent the
last couple of weeks testing various combinations of SBS and
WS's on a single box (HP Proliant ML350 G5). After I got the
DVD's to load on the HP box, everything installs and looks very
stable. The recommended setup is to run SBS 2008, WS/TS 2008
and the third
server OS as children under Hyper-V and a minimal parent WS 2008
not connected to the domain, maybe with backup as the only
feature. A couple of things, however, make me concerned and
lead to the
question below:
- The minimum system requirements has made a big leap from the
previous OS versions. uP, RAM and HD needs are demanding. A bare
WS 2008 as Hyper-V parent with a couple of guest OS'es running,
quickly takes 2.5 to 3 GB RAM for just the parent. My box has 4
Xenon 1.86 MHz cores and a child OS sometimes runs one core 100
% for minutes, with no TS role and no application SW installed
yet. And, the SBS 2008 demands minimum 69 GB HD space just to
install. - Third party software is needed to get USB and serial
com equipment connected to child OS's under Hyper-V, which means
extra software and expenses.

I have to admit that when I bought the server box some time
ago, I had the system requirements from the SBS 2003 and WS
2003 in the back of my mind. By now, the HP box has nearly
doubled in price due to adding more capacity. And, to run the recommended setup,
I may very well have to add even more RAM and still be a little
short on uP power.
So, to be competitive, it is tempting to look for somewhat
leaner setups with less need for HW resources. One way could be
to drop Hyper-V for the time being and instead use Virtual
Server 2005 for virtualization. This way I can run SBS 2008 and
VS 2005 as parent and WS 2008/TS and third OS as children.
Positive:
- 2008 version SBS and WS/TS
- Less need for RAM and to some extent other HW resources
- 64 bit SBS
- Full USB and serial com support in SBS
- Parent and child OS's in same domain
Negative:
- 32 bit WS/TS and third OS
- The web based VS 2005 administration

What is your opinion, anyone ? Am I lost here or what ?

It's snowing again, best regards
grandpa

Ignoring continuing supportability of SBS08/VS2005 for the time
being; By ditching Hyper-V, you'll loose the efficiencies of that
architecture and increase the burden of the hosting OS (SBS08).
Additionally, your guest OS's will run less efficiently
themselves and be limited to 32bit.

MS has stated 2008 will be the last 32bit Server OS. 2008 R2 beta
already is 64 bit only. So, you're kinda painting your self into
a corner on future technologies.

Is RAM your primary concern on hardware resoruces?

--
/kj


Thanks for reply

I am concerned for both RAM and uP. I feel this demo box is
getting expensive. Original RAM is expensive and new uPs even
more. Next step RAM would be one or two 8 GB sets. It's ok if the
box would be powerful enough to do a convincing demo with 5 to 10
client PCs, but, I'm not convinced after doing a number of simple
test installations. I don't want to spend more unless I'm sure
this can serve as a convincing demo. Just wondering if it is a
little early to sell the Hyper-V stuff. In a year or two the
necessary HW is available at a reasonable cost and the Hyper-V
probably has better IO support. Most of my customers don't care
what's inside as long as it works well and is competative in
price, whether it's 32 or 64 bit if you can't see the difference.
Of course, the whole idea falls apart unless it noticably reduces
HW requrements. I'm really uncertain on this. Regards grandpa

RAM and IO are the usual constraints and often the first
performance bottle neck encountered. You should easily be able to
accommodate those child partitions & guest OS, with a parent &
Host Hyper-V OS, or GUI& HV Role OS.

Network IO performance can be gained by adding NICs'. Fast disk
subsystems tailored for your Guests OS (SQL/Exchange, etc) and
optimizing the methods for your VHD's & Guest Disks. (Pass-through,
Fixed, and dynamic in fastest to slowest).

All the HV setups I've done run out of RAM before proc utilization
bogs it down.

RAM is just the limiter right now (IMHO). Both what you can afford
and the max your system can handle.

For these, I'd be more inclined to sacrifice a little performance
(for now) than compromise on the architecture.


--
/kj

Thanks again Kevin!

You and Charlie have convinced me, I'll go for the recommended
setup, but will increase the RAM to 18 GB to make sure. I obviously
misinterpreted the RAM use I saw on the WS 2008 parent. On the other
hand, the setup with the SBS 2008 / VS 2005 as parent looked good at
first sight, but that was with no application programs running in
the child.
Best regards grandpa

I seriously doubt you'll be disappointed, and there is much more
ability to fine tune performance across the child/guest OS board.

"Enlightened" (Virtualization aware, 2K8+, Vista, Win7, ) OS run so
much better with Hyper-V !

--
/kj


I had four "best" alternatives on my pad here, two of them with 32
bit child OS's. After this discussion, I will put into practice one.
That is GUI& HV Role 2008 OS as parent and SBS 2008, WS 2008/TS and
third OS as child OS's.
The last few installations has gone without a single error og warning
message. That by itself is great progress from some years back when
some OS's and Office packs couldn't even get installed by following
the enclosed instructions.

The main drawback with this alternative will be the lack of some IO
support. Some of my customers will not understand why we have to add
extras to this new, great version to be able to connect the fax and
to take backups. I do hope MS will do something with this. But if the
rest performs well, I think we can handle that for the time being

I think the USB support is a concern and while there are third party solutions, I too would like to see better MS Hyper-V support for this.

For backups, there are pass through disks and Server 2008 R2 is suppose to be "enlightened" further to support dynamic VHD adds and removes. This should drastically improve the arrangement currently at hand. (Reminds me, I need to get my lab HV server up on this beta)

For me, FAX is becoming much less of a factor. I know many business will continue reliance upon FAX for ages to come, but most of mine are showing less interest and business necessity for it.



30 years + with one leg in this business has made me cautious, it
feels so good to get advice from all of you in this situation. Thanks!

grandpa

--
/kj


.

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    (microsoft.public.windows.server.sbs)
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