Re: Dual NIC vs Single NIC

G'day Terence,

we all learn my friend, and I am glad to see your response, not for the
'admitted mistake' but to see that you have gone looking for the right
answers.

You also now explain why and the possible 'workarounds'. High points for
doing so.

You are not the 1st, nor last, person to misunderstand this before
looking more closely at the process.

I will again argue that turning off the client DNS cache (0 refresh
time) is not a good idea, causing the DNS client to pass all queries to a
server rather than using locally cached information may slow things down.
This argument results in what I consider a 'foregone conclusion', AD members
should _only_ look to AD aware DNS servers for name resolution (WINS is
almost dead, and the Browser Service should be dead but is needed in some
circumstances). Processes which require name resolution will normally 'fall
back' through available name resolution methods, it is the timeouts and
delays that cause us grief. If a name isn't available by one mechanism, or
appears not to be available (slow DNS response), it is likely that the OS
will satisfy the query by another mechanism but this may happen outside the
application's timeout period. If the app regenerates the query and cached
information is available the query will not timeout.

"Terence Liu [MSFT]" <v-terliu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:9ZSSxzpgIHA.4672@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Hello SuperGumby and Joe,

I'm sorry for the delay response and I had discussed this DNS query issue
with DNS support engineers.

I need to say I'm wrong. I was misunderstanding the DNS query process. I
get the KB261968 to describe this process.

261968 Explanation of the Server List Management Feature in the Domain
Name
http://support.microsoft.com/?id=261968

We can configure an external DNS server entry in the clients TCP/IP
properties as an alternate DNS. The clients will be able to access the
Internet when the SBS server is offline. However, after we reload the SBS
server into the network, we need to reboot the client computers so that
the
clients will go back to use the SBS server as DNS service provider.

If you are using Windows 2000 or Windows XP as the client OS, the
computers
will build a DNS server search list. This mechanism is used to improve the
DNS query performance of the client computers. All the DNS servers you
configured for the client computer will be put into the list. The client
computer queries the DNS server from the top of the list. If there is no
response from the first DNS server, the client computer will then query
the
second DNS server and move the first DNS server to the bottom of the list.
This causes the DNS query still goes to the second server after recovering
the primary server.

More information:
How DNS query works
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/WindowsServ/2003/standard/p
roddocs/en-us/sag_DNS_und_HowDnsWorks.asp

http://www.microsoft.com/resources/documentation/WindowsServ/2003/standard/p
roddocs/en-us/sag_DNS_ovr_ClientFeatures.asp

135919 DNS Server Search Order Functionality in Windows
http://support.microsoft.com/?id=135919


Hello Joe,

I'm sorry for my mistake.

I would suggest that we have a second DC in the SBS domain. The second DC
would also have to be a DNS server and a GC, and as long as it's DNS its
set as secondary for the clients, the clients should still be able to
authenticate using the second DC if SBS goes down. Of course there would
be
no access to any resources hosted on SBS, such as Exchange or the User
shared folders.

As to the DNS query doesn't get back to the first listed DNS server issue,
DNS client will use a single server (per NIC) and not change that server
unless it gets no response. When it receives no response from the primary
DNS server on a NIC it will loop through the servers in order timing out
each one until it receives a valid response. The server that gives it a
valid response will be tagged as the primary DNS server for that NIC until
one of 4 events:

1. Reboot
2. Disable/re-enable the NIC
3. Stop/start the DNS client service
4. The server fails to respond to a DNS request in which case the above
process starts again with the next server on the list.
5. The DNS client is forced to query the first listed DNS server (see
below.)

I. There's a registry key in Windows 2000 that allow this "client" to hold
its DNS server priority for a certain time period before querying the
failed primary DNS server again. If the value is zero which means it
always
queries the primary DNS before trying the others IP on the list:

Note: On W2k sp3 and later, the key is not shown, unless it was manually
entered or a hotfix was applied that entered the key.

1. In the Windows registry of the Exchange server, go to the Key:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Dnscache\Parameters.

2. Look for the value: ResetServerPrioritiesTimeInterval or
ServerPriorityTimeLimit.

3. Please note whether either of these values are found and their data
value. If neither keys are found, proceed below:
a) Enter in new value: ServerPriorityTimeLimit
b) Set Data type to REG_DWORD
c) Range: 384 (HEX)

This will hold the DNS server priority list for 900 seconds (384 Hex)
before querying the top of the DNS list again: ''286834 The DNS Client
Service Does Not Revert to Using the First Server in the -
http://support.microsoft.com/?id=286834''.

II. For Windows XP and above:

320760 The DNS Client Service Does Not Revert to Using the First Server in
the list in Windows XP
http://support.microsoft.com/?id=320760

318803 How to Disable Client-Side DNS Caching in Windows XP and Windows
Server
http://support.microsoft.com/?id=318803

I hope the above information helps. If you have any questions, please feel
free to let me know.

Have a nice day!

Best regards,

Terence Liu(MSFT)

Microsoft CSS Online Newsgroup Support

Get Secure! - www.microsoft.com/security

=====================================================
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=====================================================

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rights.

--------------------
| From: "SuperGumby [SBS MVP]" <not@xxxxxxxxxxx>
| References: <FA164BBD-4DB2-452C-ADF2-9AE5BCEA6430@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<ebEUjegfIHA.2540@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<33796A03-8F47-4D52-AC09-1046343B1ABA@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<ekU3lVsfIHA.3940@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<26E842FE-6BEF-4E0F-BE4E-B60A50CB6D3A@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<vw0WxA0fIHA.6616@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<#r7HpK0fIHA.4684@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<A6$vBqAgIHA.5204@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| Subject: Re: Dual NIC vs Single NIC
| Date: Fri, 7 Mar 2008 18:11:20 +1100
| Lines: 378
| X-Priority: 3
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121.217.134.196
| Path: TK2MSFTNGHUB02.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTNGP01.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl
| Xref: TK2MSFTNGHUB02.phx.gbl microsoft.public.windows.server.sbs:97004
| X-Tomcat-NG: microsoft.public.windows.server.sbs
|
| and read my reply, and look into how the DNS Client operates.
|
| The DNS client will not switch back to using SBS until a timeout is
reached
| or the machine is restarted. During normal operation when SBS DNS is
| available, if it is delayed for some reason (busy SBS) the alternate DNS
| server will be used and AD queries will not be satisfied, again, not
| changing back immediately the SBS DNS Server becomes available but at
some
| later time. Yes, there is a reg change that can reduce and/or eliminate
the
| delay in switching from the 'alternate' back to the 'primary', please do
not
| promote it's use either, the behaviour defaults to what it is because it
| should.
|
| The mixed use of AD + non-AD aware DNS servers is a major contributor to
| 'odd problems', things going wrong intermittently, NOT on SBS networks
but
| on _ANY_ AD (ie. the problem is not SBS specific, it affects all Windows
DNS
| clients needing to query AD)
|
| "Terence Liu [MSFT]" <v-terliu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
| news:A6$vBqAgIHA.5204@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
| > Hello SuperGumby,
| >
| > Thank you for your reply.
| >
| > Please read my reply carefully.
| >
| > In my suggestion, we try to make the DHCP on SBS to assign TWO DNS
servers
| > to all client computers. The first (Primary) DNS is pointing to SBS
(AD),
| > the second (Alternate) DNS is pointing to ISP.
| >
| > Note: After the client gets IP configuration from SBS, we can run
| > "ipconfig
| > /all" on client to verify it gets TWO DNS servers.
| >
| > 1. When the SBS in work, the client uses the first (Primary) DNS to
| > resolve
| > AD related names and Internet domain names.
| >
| > 2. When the SBS shutdown, the client unable to use the first (Primary)
| > DNS,
| > it will try to use the second (Alternate) DNS to resolve Internet
domain
| > names.
| >
| > 3. When the SBS starts again, the client will automatically use the
first
| > (Primary) DNS instead of second (Alternate). We do not need to do
| > anything,
| > and we will not experience any AD related name resolution issue.
| >
| > Hope that clearly.
| >
| > Thanks and have a nice day!
| >
| > Best regards,
| >
| > Terence Liu(MSFT)
| >
| > Microsoft CSS Online Newsgroup Support
| >
| > Get Secure! - www.microsoft.com/security
| >
| > =====================================================
| > This newsgroup only focuses on SBS technical issues. If you have
issues
| > regarding other Microsoft products, you'd better post in the
corresponding
| > newsgroups so that they can be resolved in an efficient and timely
manner.
| > You can locate the newsgroup here:
| > http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/en-us/default.aspx
| >
| > When opening a new thread via the web interface, we recommend you
check
| > the
| > "Notify me of replies" box to receive e-mail notifications when there
are
| > any updates in your thread. When responding to posts via your
newsreader,
| > please "Reply to Group" so that others may learn and benefit from your
| > issue.
| >
| > Microsoft engineers can only focus on one issue per thread. Although
we
| > provide other information for your reference, we recommend you post
| > different incidents in different threads to keep the thread clean. In
| > doing
| > so, it will ensure your issues are resolved in a timely manner.
| >
| > For urgent issues, you may want to contact Microsoft CSS directly.
Please
| > check http://support.microsoft.com for regional support phone numbers.
| >
| > Any input or comments in this thread are highly appreciated.
| > =====================================================
| >
| > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
| > rights.
| >
| > --------------------
| > | From: "SuperGumby [SBS MVP]" <not@xxxxxxxxxxx>
| > | References: <FA164BBD-4DB2-452C-ADF2-9AE5BCEA6430@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| > <ebEUjegfIHA.2540@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| > <33796A03-8F47-4D52-AC09-1046343B1ABA@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| > <ekU3lVsfIHA.3940@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| > <26E842FE-6BEF-4E0F-BE4E-B60A50CB6D3A@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| > <vw0WxA0fIHA.6616@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| > | Subject: Re: Dual NIC vs Single NIC
| > | Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 15:29:22 +1100
| > | Lines: 211
| > | X-Priority: 3
| > | X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
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| > | Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windows.server.sbs
| > | NNTP-Posting-Host: cpe-121-217-134-196.nsw.bigpond.net.au
| > 121.217.134.196
| > | Path:
TK2MSFTNGHUB02.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTNGP01.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl
| > | Xref: TK2MSFTNGHUB02.phx.gbl
microsoft.public.windows.server.sbs:96665
| > | X-Tomcat-NG: microsoft.public.windows.server.sbs
| > |
| > | Terence, you're gonna make me hot under the collar.
| > |
| > | _ALL_ members of a Windows AD should use _only_ AD aware DNS servers
for
| > | name resolution. Should Joe perform the action you describe and
restart
| > his
| > | SBS any client machine which makes a name query while SBS' DNS is
| > | unavailable will switch to querying his AD-ignorant router/ISP for
name
| > | queries. The PC's will then experience problems requesting AD
resources
| > | until they switch back to using SBS DNS.
| > |
| > | Whoever suggested you should pass on this advice needs to talk to MS
| > Active
| > | Directory development, then be shot.
| > |
| > | "Terence Liu [MSFT]" <v-terliu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
message
| > | news:vw0WxA0fIHA.6616@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
| > | > Hello Joe,
| > | >
| > | > Thank you for posting here. Let's also thank others for the input.
| > | >
| > | > According to your description, I understand that you want to
client
| > | > computers could access Internet when you shutdown or restart the
SBS
| > for
| > | > maintenance. If I have misunderstood the problem, please don't
| > hesitate
| > to
| > | > let me know.
| > | >
| > | > Based on my research, this is a DNS and DHCP issue. By default the
SBS
| > is
| > | > the DNS server for all clients. After you shutdown the SBS, the
client
| > | > computers unable to resolve the domain name of Internet. So the
| > Internet
| > | > access fail.
| > | >
| > | > For this, we can make the DHCP on SBS to assign second DNS server
to
| > all
| > | > client computers. When the primary DNS (SBS) is not available, the
| > clients
| > | > will try the alternate DNS server.
| > | >
| > | > 1. Run command "dhcpmgmt.msc" on SBS to open DHCP console
| > | > 2. Extend DHCP -> SBS.domain.local -> Scope -> Scope Options
| > | > 3. Double click "006 DNS Servers" in right pane
| > | > 4. Input the second DNS (your ISP DNS), click Add
| > | >
| > | > Note: Ensure the SBS IP is above your ISP IP in the list.
| > | >
| > | > 5. Click OK
| > | > 6. Restart the clients
| > | >
| > | > Note: If you rerun the CEICW, the above configuration will be
reset
to
| > | > default value. Therefore, you need to perform the above steps
again
| > after
| > | > your rerun the CEICW.
| > | >
| > | > Of course, this workaround does not work when the client restarts
at
| > the
| > | > SBS shutdown time. The client gets IP address from SBS, if the SBS
| > | > shutdown, the client unable to detect the DHCP server, and unable
to
| > get
| > | > IP. The whole network of client will be unavailable.
| > | >
| > | > To workaround this scenario, you only have to disable DHCP on SBS
and
| > make
| > | > your router work as DHCP server. However, this is not recommended.
If
| > you
| > | > like, you can try it yourself.
| > | >
| > | > I hope these steps will give you some help.
| > | >
| > | > Thanks and have a nice day!
| > | >
| > | > Best regards,
| > | >
| > | > Terence Liu(MSFT)
| > | >
| > | > Microsoft CSS Online Newsgroup Support
| > | >
| > | > Get Secure! - www.microsoft.com/security
| > | >
| > | > =====================================================
| > | > This newsgroup only focuses on SBS technical issues. If you have
| > issues
| > | > regarding other Microsoft products, you'd better post in the
| > corresponding
| > | > newsgroups so that they can be resolved in an efficient and timely
| > manner.
| > | > You can locate the newsgroup here:
| > | > http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/en-us/default.aspx
| > | >
| > | > When opening a new thread via the web interface, we recommend you
| > check
| > | > the
| > | > "Notify me of replies" box to receive e-mail notifications when
there
| > are
| > | > any updates in your thread. When responding to posts via your
| > newsreader,
| > | > please "Reply to Group" so that others may learn and benefit from
your
| > | > issue.
| > | >
| > | > Microsoft engineers can only focus on one issue per thread.
Although
| > we
| > | > provide other information for your reference, we recommend you
post
| > | > different incidents in different threads to keep the thread clean.
In
| > | > doing
| > | > so, it will ensure your issues are resolved in a timely manner.
| > | >
| > | > For urgent issues, you may want to contact Microsoft CSS directly.
| > Please
| > | > check http://support.microsoft.com for regional support phone
numbers.
| > | >
| > | > Any input or comments in this thread are highly appreciated.
| > | > =====================================================
| > | >
| > | > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers
no
| > | > rights.
| > | >
| > | > --------------------
| > | > | Thread-Topic: Dual NIC vs Single NIC
| > | > | thread-index: Ach+7Ycor51Gr0zTRzilimYCEQJBpQ==
| > | > | X-WBNR-Posting-Host: 207.46.19.168
| > | > | From: =?Utf-8?B?Sm9l?= <Joe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| > | > | References:
<FA164BBD-4DB2-452C-ADF2-9AE5BCEA6430@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| > | > <ebEUjegfIHA.2540@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| > | > <33796A03-8F47-4D52-AC09-1046343B1ABA@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| > | > <ekU3lVsfIHA.3940@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| > | > | Subject: Re: Dual NIC vs Single NIC
| > | > | Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 10:20:01 -0800
| > | > | Lines: 73
| > | > | Message-ID: <26E842FE-6BEF-4E0F-BE4E-B60A50CB6D3A@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
| > | > | MIME-Version: 1.0
| > | > | Content-Type: text/plain;
| > | > | charset="Utf-8"
| > | > | Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
| > | > | X-Newsreader: Microsoft CDO for Windows 2000
| > | > | Content-Class: urn:content-classes:message
| > | > | Importance: normal
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| > | > | Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windows.server.sbs
| > | > | Path: TK2MSFTNGHUB02.phx.gbl
| > | > | Xref: TK2MSFTNGHUB02.phx.gbl
| > microsoft.public.windows.server.sbs:96557
| > | > | NNTP-Posting-Host: tk2msftsbfm01.phx.gbl 10.40.244.148
| > | > | X-Tomcat-NG: microsoft.public.windows.server.sbs
| > | > |
| > | > | Lanwench, thanks again for your input. I attempt to do as little
| > | > maintainence
| > | > | as possible during the work hours of course. However 2 of my
clients
| > are
| > | > | large churches and they have extended hours 7 days a wekk plus
some
| > of
| > | > the
| > | > | programs they run require maintance by the software support
personel
| > | > during
| > | > | the 8-5 time frame.
| > | > |
| > | > | When I don't use ISA I typically intall a Sonicwall as my
gateway
| > and
| > | > more
| > | > | recently a newer firewall by Calyptix Security (it also has an
| > internal
| > | > hard
| > | > | drive and will hold mail when the server is offline)
| > | > |
| > | > | Joe
| > | > |
| > | > | "Lanwench [MVP - Exchange]" wrote:
| > | > |
| > | > | > Joe <Joe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
| > | > | > > Lanwrench that is one the problem with the dual nic setup,
The
| > users
| > | > | > > get to the internet thru the SBS box. If it is down, while
they
| > can
| > | > | > > log on to their own box they have no access to the outside
| > world.
| > I
| > | > | > > am looking for a way to make my systems a little more
| > "bulletproof"
| > | > | > > and at the same time allow me to do some server maintainance
| > without
| > | > | > > totally shutting down the office.
| > | > | >
| > | > | > Well, I don't think you should be doing server maintenance
during
| > the
| > | > | > business day, myself - but your server shouldn't be the
gateway
if
| > you
| > | > don't
| > | > | > have ISA. Set all clients to point at your router's LAN IP as
| > default
| > | > | > gateway.
| > | > | > >
| > | > | > > "Lanwench [MVP - Exchange]" wrote:
| > | > | > >
| > | > | > >> Joe <Joe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
| > | > | > >>> In the past Most of my systems have been dual NIC usually
with
| > ISA
| > | > | > >>> but due to many reasons I am now considering going to a
single
| > NIC
| > | > | > >>> and moving away from ISA.
| > | > | > >>>
| > | > | > >>> Currently with my existing setup, if the SBS server is
down,
| > for
| > | > | > >>> what ever reason, my customers can't even get to the
internet.
| > | > | > >>
| > | > | > >> Yes they can.....they just can't resolve names :)
| > | > | > >>>
| > | > | > >>> If I had a second member server set up as the backup DC, a
| > single
| > | > | > >>> NIC SBS server, and a hardware firewall wouldn't that
allow
my
| > | > | > >>> customer to log on and access the internet if the SBS
server
| > was
| > | > | > >>> offline temporarly? I would still want the SBS server to
run
| > the
| > | > | > >>> DHCP and DNS roles but would assume that would not matter
as
| > long
| > | > | > >>> as the SBS machine was not down for more than a few hours
at a
| > | > time.
| > | > | > >>
| > | > | > >> Yes. If you have another DC running AD-integrated DNS, and
your
| > | > | > >> client workstations have the secondary DNS server listed,
they
| > | > | > >> should work.
| > | > | > >>>
| > | > | > >>> The above seems logical to me, but then since I have not
done
| > it I
| > | > | > >>> am checking for any "gotchas" lying around that I might
not
be
| > | > | > >>> aware of.
| > | > | > >>>
| > | > | > >>> By the way I would be running SBS2003R2 on such an install
| > that
| > | > | > >>> would assist me in the licencing issue of the second
server
| > which
| > | > | > >>> would be running server 2000 or 2003 as a member of the
SBS
| > box.
| > | > | > >>
| > | > | > >> You'd need to buy Windows 2000 or 2003 but I believe you
| > wouldn't
| > | > | > >> need additional CALs.
| > | > | > >>
| > | > | > >> That all being said, if you're having regular problems with
| > your
| > | > SBS
| > | > | > >> box going down, I'd rather address those - add as much
| > redundancy
| > | > to
| > | > | > >> the server hardware as you can. That would be a better use
of
| > | > money,
| > | > | > >> in my opinion, although it's true that outside of SBS, it's
| > always
| > | > | > >> recommended to have more than one DC.
| > | > | > >>
| > | > | > >>>
| > | > | > >>> Joe
| > | > | >
| > | > | >
| > | > | >
| > | > | >
| > | > |
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| > |
| >
|
|
|



.

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    (microsoft.public.windows.server.sbs)
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    ... On the SBS Server, go to command prompt, type the following command: ... DNS: SBS INTERNAL NIC IP as the only entry ... What are editions of client computer and SBS? ...
    (microsoft.public.windows.server.sbs)