Re: Show details - Re: NVIDIA Decoder Problems

Chris:

I agree with you on a lot of this. Yes there are problems with different
driver revisions, but no revision is absolutely perfect. I went back to 5.0
and all the up to 5.6 and the issues were all the same. I had the same
results, the directx sdk did not show any difference either. For the most
part I read about users who complain very loudly with with little to back
them up. They complain about microsoft with dollar signs etc, about greed
and idiocy like that. Then they complain how every little revision of patch
has just destroyed their machine, but they can't duplicate anything, and are
not willing to post procedures, logs and specifications.

Overall dealing with this type of individual is tiring and it usually turns
out that they are about 14-17 years old and have zero real knowledge of
computers. The most these types of users really know is how to play games
and run a few "fun" script kiddie programs. I do agree with you that I has
definitely got to improve their QA, and their developer base has been on them
to get them to smarten up. For the most part, it is the laptop market that
is driving ATI corporate side now, and they don't seem to be too concerned
with what is happening on the aftermarket card side. Their developer support
has gone down quite badly in the last couple of years, and I have to really
dig into them to get issues resolved, but I do get them resolved. Now with
Nvidia, forget it. Nvidia is not is the least concerned with developers
integrating third party software products. Their focus is to sell is huge
volumes the same OEM card under 200 different names for as long as they can.
Their drivers change so often and are not documented, and they do not
document their SDKs worth a tweet for any real value. Their skeleton
drivers are what most third party OEMs use without modification. Now for ATI
OEMs that is not the case, ATI insists and makes it very clear that all the
chipsets are tuned for the individual computer release (be it a laptop -
which again is their big focus now), and the third party Cards such as
Saphire, Hercules etc customise the drivers very thoroughly. In fact in
tests, the Saphire drivers have beet without any trouble the ATI releases.

Again I agree that their are revision issues, and 5.5 did not last very long
as a major release, but the major issue between 5.5 and 5.6 was how DirectX 9
shader issues were handle as well as some issues with laptop chipsets. The
Directx9 shader support was introduced in 5.4 and updated in 5.6. The 5.5
release had nothing to do with this issue. There are probably other minor
issues in place, I can't look directly at their code tree, but most of the
issues that coming up now are concerning laptop issues or the X line. ATI is
not interested in supporting the 9xxx line any longer. They have made that
very clear to the developers, marketting and support.

Now looking at issues from the non-technical side, as far as I can tell, ATI
issues have gone down not up. The complaints and questions across the boards
that I can scan for the numbers for, the 9xxx lines are about 9800 all told,
and for X line there are about 700. Now the Radeon X line has a lot of
hardware out there and it is by far more advanced than the Radeon 9000 line.
Just take a look at the tuner for a minor comparison to start, there are so
many things to look at. Unfortunately more and more kiddies are opening
computers and thinking they can anything, which I feel is generally the basis
of most of the computer complaints out there. The computer may be a
commodity, but the knowledge is not. I learned how to use a slide ruler in
high school (the last class for my school), but in university taking
engineering, I used my trustworthy HP calculator which I programmed to
death. We weren't allowed to take them in tests because of the possibilty of
cheating, which was ridiculous, since programming them to do the work
required that you understood the problem more thoroughly. Now for starters.
How many people do you actually know that program and I mean honest to
goodness programming. Not script kiddie stuff, not running some cool
application that someone else created, but how many people actually program
with computers. The ratio is less and less and less. The most common use
of computers at home is to play games, not even to write letters anymore.
This is the reason why I agree with the concept of the Media Center Computer,
it brings the computer into a centralized family scenerio (hopefully).
Unfortunately, most MCE computers are on desktops, and are not being use for
their intended purpose as a media center.

Now going back to Nvidia issues, Chris why would I possibly make up such a
detailed issue about a simple media driver here. Did anyone else actually
read and check the material I documented. I have all the traces, the
drivers, the hardware dumps etc, and they show the same thing. So I am
asking show me a hardware configuration file showing active nvidia dvd
decoder actually decoder data with an ati card. I have done this work with
multiple cards and multiple computers, multiple drivers, debuggers, source
code from the vendors, their own procedures. On and on and on. And all
anyone can say is that "it works for me". Well show me the evidence.
Someone offered, but did not put up the logs. I think that speaks loudly.

Go ahead, follow the procedure that I did, and see what you get out of it.
You will find that even without the nvidia decoder it will still work. Can
you modify the nvidia decoder controls in media center as you can when you
have a nvidia card in a system. The applet is not even active; check it
yourself it does a hardware check in the code, you can use debugger to catch
easily, and it verifies if you have the compatible Nvidia hardware signature
in ROM. Now I didn't write this application, so I didn't put this in there.
I put up the version of all the software I am using, so please tell me how it
can work for you. Do the controls work in media center you? Does Media
player support the Nvidia codec in Windows Media Center? Does the Nvidia
DVD applet do anything on your machine?

Try what I did, take out all remnant of the nvidia decoder, wipe it out
completely, then play the same dvd, you will get the exact same video without
any issues on media center. So how could the nvidia codec be doing anything?
I can give you a step by step (a 1 .... 2000 procedure if you like with all
the hardware software, patches etc), I just want to see if anyone will
actually do the samething.

JonP



Now

"Chris Lanier" wrote:

> >>But that is utter nonsense to say that ATI did a horrible job of
> >>developing those drivers.
>
> Again, try and look at it from a non-technical/developer side. Just search
> through the newsgroups and find how many people have problems with their MCE
> machines with the Cat 5.5's. Broken DVD menus, choppy video, etc. In fact,
> that sounds kind of like a few problems you had when using testing.
> Everything you can see at the "driver level" is irrelevant if they just
> cause problems in an average install. Again, drop the Cat 5.5 or any of
> your findings will be trashed. In fact, I would also drop 5.6 at this
> point, as more and more people are reporting MCE related issues. If you
> want to test correctly, try using 5.3. or 5.4.
>
> Ref:
> http://www.thegreenbutton.com/community/shwmessage.aspx?ForumID=47&MessageID=112899
> Ref:
> http://www.thegreenbutton.com/community/shwmessage.aspx?ForumID=47&MessageID=114456
>
> Oddly enough, both of those threads have people using NVIDIA's decoders with
> an ATI card. =) At least 5 people saying that NVIDIA's decoders work fine
> with ATI cards when you don't have broken Cat drivers installed.
>
> >> What is the level of expertise here? I expect from your answer you have
> >> a bit more knowledge, or did you just copy it from somewhere?
>
> I used to be a Digital Media MVP. I know how-to help people troubleshoot
> issues like this, and I know that trying to pull it from the technical side
> isn't where you start with issues like this. I'm not a developer, but again
> you need to be looking at this from a non-technical/developer aspect. Your
> not getting the story you need doing what you are. Oh, I'm also an MCP,
> NET+, etc. That's irrelevant to this however.
>
> >> Seriously though drop the nonsense of not using developer kits and ati
> >> not knowing what they are doing that is all ridiculous.
>
> The simplest (and right) answer will come not using them. ;-) And it's a
> rather good known fact that the Cat 5.5+MCE=Trash. :-)
>
> --
> Chris Lanier
> http://www.msmvps.com/chrisl/
> http://www.thegreenbutton.com/
>
> "JonP" <JonP@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:75E10DC5-2880-454B-8E6E-FF4D56557A7C@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Chris
> >
> > I am a developer and an engineer it is the easiest way to find out what is
> > going on why would I not want to use SDKs and developer kits if I know how
> > to
> > develop hardware and software. I already know how to use the full APIs of
> > the different products so again, it is an easy solution for a developer.
> > Take a look at microsofts, ati's and nvidia's developer resources and then
> > tell why I wouldn't want to use these. Do I have to post code here? But
> > this
> > is not the forum for that.
> >
> > Your answer is the most complete I have seen I will check it out. But
> > that
> > is utter nonsense to say that ATI did a horrible job of developing those
> > drivers. I can go back to whatever driver level and get the same problems
> > here and on one of 400 odd machines in QA. I also have access to IBM,
> > Intel
> > and Microsoft's test labs, and are you trying to tell me that they don't
> > know
> > what they are doing.
> >
> > What is the level of expertise here? I expect from your answer you have a
> > bit more knowledge, or did you just copy it from somewhere? Please point
> > to
> > the resources, then again, I did post my points to ATI, Nvidia and
> > Cyberlink,
> > so I am curious as to what their response is.
> >
> > Oh yes on a note, I did find out what the problem with cyberlink decoder
> > is,
> > the Ati decoder is actually a newer release than the cyberlink retail and
> > patch version, so cyberlink doesn't seem to directly support it's own
> > product
> > very well. The patched release as of March 2005 is 4.00.2417, while the
> > ATI
> > release is two major releases above this.
> >
> > Yes I am very familiar with directshow, and have been coding support for
> > it
> > for four years now. I have some very good and stable commercial code that
> > is
> > being update to MCE. Oh yes a point here is that I have been an ATI
> > developer since the beginning of the rage chipset, so I am familiar with
> > their driver architectures quite well. I have direct contact developer
> > support which is where I have directed my questions to at ATI.
> >
> > Thank you for a well document and well thought out answer, I do appreciate
> > actual content. Seriously though drop the nonsense of not using developer
> > kits and ati not knowing what they are doing that is all ridiculous.
> >
> > JonP
> >
> > "Chris Lanier" wrote:
> >
> >> Jon, put away any debugger, anything DDK related, and all that other
> >> stuff.
> >> It's not needed and your causing more trouble for yourself trying to
> >> learn
> >> wants going on. You getting to caught up in trying to find the most
> >> technical explanation you can, but you are overlooking everything at
> >> actually matters.
> >>
> >> Drop the Cat 5.5 drivers, and go with 5.6 or 5.3. ATI did a horrible job
> >> with 5.5, anything you test with those drivers should be disregarded now.
> >>
> >> Grab the DirectX SDK and/or Graphedit. Read on MSDN about DirectShow
> >> Merits.
> >>
> >> Install whatever decoders you want to on a machine with an ATI video card
> >> in
> >> it. Change the merit to the NVIDIA decoder to MERIT_PREFERRED =
> >> 0x800000.
> >> Play MPEG-2 content in WMP, right click on the item in the playlist and
> >> notice that NVIDIA's decoders are being used. Drag and drop the file
> >> into
> >> GraphEdit, and notice the filter graph is built using NVIDIA's decoders.
> >> If
> >> you see video, it's successfully working on an ATI card.
> >>
> >> Now set NVIDIA's decoders to MERIT_DO_NOT_USE = 0x200000. Set Sonic's or
> >> ATI/Cyberlinks as MERIT_NORMAL = 0x600000 or 0x800000. Notice which
> >> decoders are now being used in WMP and GraphEdit. You can even
> >> un-register
> >> the decoders using regsvr32.exe /u! There is not a need to uninstall
> >> anything in order to test this equation.
> >>
> >> All of these changes will also be reflected in DECCHECK.exe and DVDUPGRD
> >> /Detect. It's all the exact same thing, just different interfaces to
> >> configure it.
> >>
> >> >> Certainly NVIDIA doesn't seem to want customers to user their decoder
> >> >> on
> >> >> non-NVIDIA hardware.
> >>
> >> Of course, they want you to go purchase their hardware! Ford will tell
> >> you
> >> to purchase parts through Ford Service, though you can goto AutoZone and
> >> buy
> >> "brand x" and have it work fine. Ford is still going to say it's not
> >> recommended, but that doesn't mean it's not going to work. They just
> >> want
> >> your money. Basic marketing at play here, and your the exact reason
> >> marketing exists. =)
> >>
> >> --
> >> Chris Lanier
> >> http://www.msmvps.com/chrisl/
> >> http://www.thegreenbutton.com/
> >>
> >> "JonP" <JonP@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> >> news:AF714DEE-26B2-45A7-A551-8F1CAFA53FCF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> > Well I would like to see it, I really would. I even went so far as to
> >> > contact Nvidia. The answer was note the quotes "it is not recommended
> >> > for
> >> > any hardware outside of the supported list", with a link to a support
> >> > site,
> >> > so I am curious as to what the supported list is and oddly enough the
> >> > link
> >> > went right back to where I was at the very start on their web page,,
> >> > which
> >> > I
> >> > gave the link to before.
> >> >
> >> > So my next challenge was I took a bare image with just the Sonic MPEG
> >> > decoder
> >> > and the ATI / Cyberlink Decoder. I ran a DVD under media center and
> >> > media
> >> > player, no problems. Ran it with debug symbols everything was perfect.
> >> >
> >> > Then I installed the Nvidia decoder, it did install, but the panel did
> >> > not
> >> > come up under media center, but media did show the applet their, even
> >> > though
> >> > the diagostics and controls did not run. Use the Microsoft XP decoder
> >> > check
> >> > to set it as default. I played the same DVD, with debugger capture
> >> > information and oddly enough I did not get any symbol information
> >> > whatsoever
> >> > from the Nvidia DVD driver. At this point Windows Media player no
> >> > longer
> >> > played DVDs, I just got a lot of junk, but I did see the Nvidia applet
> >> > icon
> >> > running, but the media center did run the DVD and did not show the
> >> > Nvidia
> >> > applet running, ddk stream debugger showed the decoder data was coming
> >> > through the cyberlink decoder. I have 400+ MB of data stream decoder
> >> > information if youwant it, I can send it to you. At this point, I
> >> > removed
> >> > the Nvidia driver completely, verified this with the DDK tools as well
> >> > as
> >> > Winternals tools as well as the DVD backup image I took of the install
> >> > prior
> >> > to installing the Nvidia software. Ran the same DVD, and miracles of
> >> > miracles, media player now worked, media center still worked and the
> >> > data
> >> > stream capture show identical decode information with the cyberlink
> >> > codec.
> >> >
> >> > I did the same experiment, but did not reboot the machine but just
> >> > removed
> >> > the Nvidia decoder and the media center started the dvd right at where
> >> > it
> >> > started even though there was not a Nvidia dvd decoder present in the
> >> > machine. Which again proves it did not even use it when it was there.
> >> > All
> >> > the driver diagostics showed the nvidia drivers were not active, and
> >> > the
> >> > decoder data streams did not show any nvidia decoder data. So where is
> >> > nvidia
> >> > in this equation?
> >> >
> >> > Then I did the same experiment with the Nvidia blackbird tuner and
> >> > installed
> >> > the same decoders, this time with nvidia drivers, captured the same
> >> > stream
> >> > data. This time media center did come up with the controls for the
> >> > nvidia
> >> > decoder and media player worked correctly throughout. I did install
> >> > the
> >> > third party cyberlink decoder, not the ATI version. This failed to
> >> > work
> >> > with
> >> > Media center similar to how the nvidia decoder did not work with the
> >> > ATI
> >> > card. I do not have an explanation for it, but there is a patch on
> >> > cyberlink's website for the decoder, I tried it, but it did not help
> >> > either.
> >> > When I reviewed the stream data with the nvidia decoder in use, I oddly
> >> > enough saw that the data stream WAS decoded by nvidia decoder.
> >> >
> >> > So once again, you tell me how I am wrong here. Please document a
> >> > procedure
> >> > other than "it works for me". I spent six hours on this, documented
> >> > the
> >> > steps on the way, verified the hardware and software and I still get
> >> > the
> >> > same
> >> > conclusion.
> >> >
> >> > Again tell me in fully documented many with logs how you achieve this.
> >> > Certainly Nvidia doesn't seem to want customers to user their decoder
> >> > on
> >> > non-nvidia hardware. By the way, I am sending the same information to
> >> > ATI,
> >> > Nvidia and Cyberlink, and I curious as to what response I get from
> >> > other
> >> > engineers.
> >> >
> >> > Also I know what drivers I used, ATI Catalyst 5.5 MCE, ATI / Cyberlink
> >> > DVD
> >> > Decoder 6.0.0.1311, Nvidia DVD Decoder 4.67.0, Nvidia gforce 71.84,
> >> > Nvidia
> >> > TV 1.20.45.
> >> >
> >> > JonP
> >> >
> >> > "Dana Cline - MVP" wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> I'd be happy to show you a log (define what you mean by "log") of the
> >> >> nVidia
> >> >> DVD Decoder working on ATI display hardware - I'm currently using the
> >> >> latest
> >> >> nVidia decoder running on an ATI 9550 (driver version 5.4, I think).
> >> >> Tell
> >> >> me
> >> >> what kind of log you want and I'll produce it...
> >> >>
> >> >> Dana Cline - MVP
> >> >>
> >> >> "JonP" <JonP@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> >> >> news:95372957-1917-40BA-9DE2-BC32C5142E3B@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> >> > Did you actually read the whole message, and check the details. Is
> >> >> > Nvidia
> >> >> > making up facts about their own cards. Why would Microsoft, Nvidia,
> >> >> > Dell
> >> >> etc
> >> >> > etc etc do this post details, documents SDKs, documents FAQs,
> >> >> > resources
> >> >> kits,
> >> >> > shall I go on. Once again, go check it out read what I put down and
> >> >> > show
> >> >> me
> >> >> > what is wrong, if there are any points that are incorrect, document
> >> >> > them
> >> >> with
> >> >> > the actual details from Nvidia, ATI and Microsoft. I have done
> >> >> > this, I
> >> >> have
> >> >> > all the logs, the SDKs, the hardware development kits, worked on
> >> >> > actual
> >> >> > development for years, not game playing.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Show me the facts from the manufacturers and developers!
.

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