Re: Show details - Re: NVIDIA Decoder Problems

>>But that is utter nonsense to say that ATI did a horrible job of
>>developing those drivers.

Again, try and look at it from a non-technical/developer side. Just search
through the newsgroups and find how many people have problems with their MCE
machines with the Cat 5.5's. Broken DVD menus, choppy video, etc. In fact,
that sounds kind of like a few problems you had when using testing.
Everything you can see at the "driver level" is irrelevant if they just
cause problems in an average install. Again, drop the Cat 5.5 or any of
your findings will be trashed. In fact, I would also drop 5.6 at this
point, as more and more people are reporting MCE related issues. If you
want to test correctly, try using 5.3. or 5.4.

Ref:
http://www.thegreenbutton.com/community/shwmessage.aspx?ForumID=47&MessageID=112899
Ref:
http://www.thegreenbutton.com/community/shwmessage.aspx?ForumID=47&MessageID=114456

Oddly enough, both of those threads have people using NVIDIA's decoders with
an ATI card. =) At least 5 people saying that NVIDIA's decoders work fine
with ATI cards when you don't have broken Cat drivers installed.

>> What is the level of expertise here? I expect from your answer you have
>> a bit more knowledge, or did you just copy it from somewhere?

I used to be a Digital Media MVP. I know how-to help people troubleshoot
issues like this, and I know that trying to pull it from the technical side
isn't where you start with issues like this. I'm not a developer, but again
you need to be looking at this from a non-technical/developer aspect. Your
not getting the story you need doing what you are. Oh, I'm also an MCP,
NET+, etc. That's irrelevant to this however.

>> Seriously though drop the nonsense of not using developer kits and ati
>> not knowing what they are doing that is all ridiculous.

The simplest (and right) answer will come not using them. ;-) And it's a
rather good known fact that the Cat 5.5+MCE=Trash. :-)

--
Chris Lanier
http://www.msmvps.com/chrisl/
http://www.thegreenbutton.com/

"JonP" <JonP@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:75E10DC5-2880-454B-8E6E-FF4D56557A7C@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Chris
>
> I am a developer and an engineer it is the easiest way to find out what is
> going on why would I not want to use SDKs and developer kits if I know how
> to
> develop hardware and software. I already know how to use the full APIs of
> the different products so again, it is an easy solution for a developer.
> Take a look at microsofts, ati's and nvidia's developer resources and then
> tell why I wouldn't want to use these. Do I have to post code here? But
> this
> is not the forum for that.
>
> Your answer is the most complete I have seen I will check it out. But
> that
> is utter nonsense to say that ATI did a horrible job of developing those
> drivers. I can go back to whatever driver level and get the same problems
> here and on one of 400 odd machines in QA. I also have access to IBM,
> Intel
> and Microsoft's test labs, and are you trying to tell me that they don't
> know
> what they are doing.
>
> What is the level of expertise here? I expect from your answer you have a
> bit more knowledge, or did you just copy it from somewhere? Please point
> to
> the resources, then again, I did post my points to ATI, Nvidia and
> Cyberlink,
> so I am curious as to what their response is.
>
> Oh yes on a note, I did find out what the problem with cyberlink decoder
> is,
> the Ati decoder is actually a newer release than the cyberlink retail and
> patch version, so cyberlink doesn't seem to directly support it's own
> product
> very well. The patched release as of March 2005 is 4.00.2417, while the
> ATI
> release is two major releases above this.
>
> Yes I am very familiar with directshow, and have been coding support for
> it
> for four years now. I have some very good and stable commercial code that
> is
> being update to MCE. Oh yes a point here is that I have been an ATI
> developer since the beginning of the rage chipset, so I am familiar with
> their driver architectures quite well. I have direct contact developer
> support which is where I have directed my questions to at ATI.
>
> Thank you for a well document and well thought out answer, I do appreciate
> actual content. Seriously though drop the nonsense of not using developer
> kits and ati not knowing what they are doing that is all ridiculous.
>
> JonP
>
> "Chris Lanier" wrote:
>
>> Jon, put away any debugger, anything DDK related, and all that other
>> stuff.
>> It's not needed and your causing more trouble for yourself trying to
>> learn
>> wants going on. You getting to caught up in trying to find the most
>> technical explanation you can, but you are overlooking everything at
>> actually matters.
>>
>> Drop the Cat 5.5 drivers, and go with 5.6 or 5.3. ATI did a horrible job
>> with 5.5, anything you test with those drivers should be disregarded now.
>>
>> Grab the DirectX SDK and/or Graphedit. Read on MSDN about DirectShow
>> Merits.
>>
>> Install whatever decoders you want to on a machine with an ATI video card
>> in
>> it. Change the merit to the NVIDIA decoder to MERIT_PREFERRED =
>> 0x800000.
>> Play MPEG-2 content in WMP, right click on the item in the playlist and
>> notice that NVIDIA's decoders are being used. Drag and drop the file
>> into
>> GraphEdit, and notice the filter graph is built using NVIDIA's decoders.
>> If
>> you see video, it's successfully working on an ATI card.
>>
>> Now set NVIDIA's decoders to MERIT_DO_NOT_USE = 0x200000. Set Sonic's or
>> ATI/Cyberlinks as MERIT_NORMAL = 0x600000 or 0x800000. Notice which
>> decoders are now being used in WMP and GraphEdit. You can even
>> un-register
>> the decoders using regsvr32.exe /u! There is not a need to uninstall
>> anything in order to test this equation.
>>
>> All of these changes will also be reflected in DECCHECK.exe and DVDUPGRD
>> /Detect. It's all the exact same thing, just different interfaces to
>> configure it.
>>
>> >> Certainly NVIDIA doesn't seem to want customers to user their decoder
>> >> on
>> >> non-NVIDIA hardware.
>>
>> Of course, they want you to go purchase their hardware! Ford will tell
>> you
>> to purchase parts through Ford Service, though you can goto AutoZone and
>> buy
>> "brand x" and have it work fine. Ford is still going to say it's not
>> recommended, but that doesn't mean it's not going to work. They just
>> want
>> your money. Basic marketing at play here, and your the exact reason
>> marketing exists. =)
>>
>> --
>> Chris Lanier
>> http://www.msmvps.com/chrisl/
>> http://www.thegreenbutton.com/
>>
>> "JonP" <JonP@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:AF714DEE-26B2-45A7-A551-8F1CAFA53FCF@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > Well I would like to see it, I really would. I even went so far as to
>> > contact Nvidia. The answer was note the quotes "it is not recommended
>> > for
>> > any hardware outside of the supported list", with a link to a support
>> > site,
>> > so I am curious as to what the supported list is and oddly enough the
>> > link
>> > went right back to where I was at the very start on their web page,,
>> > which
>> > I
>> > gave the link to before.
>> >
>> > So my next challenge was I took a bare image with just the Sonic MPEG
>> > decoder
>> > and the ATI / Cyberlink Decoder. I ran a DVD under media center and
>> > media
>> > player, no problems. Ran it with debug symbols everything was perfect.
>> >
>> > Then I installed the Nvidia decoder, it did install, but the panel did
>> > not
>> > come up under media center, but media did show the applet their, even
>> > though
>> > the diagostics and controls did not run. Use the Microsoft XP decoder
>> > check
>> > to set it as default. I played the same DVD, with debugger capture
>> > information and oddly enough I did not get any symbol information
>> > whatsoever
>> > from the Nvidia DVD driver. At this point Windows Media player no
>> > longer
>> > played DVDs, I just got a lot of junk, but I did see the Nvidia applet
>> > icon
>> > running, but the media center did run the DVD and did not show the
>> > Nvidia
>> > applet running, ddk stream debugger showed the decoder data was coming
>> > through the cyberlink decoder. I have 400+ MB of data stream decoder
>> > information if youwant it, I can send it to you. At this point, I
>> > removed
>> > the Nvidia driver completely, verified this with the DDK tools as well
>> > as
>> > Winternals tools as well as the DVD backup image I took of the install
>> > prior
>> > to installing the Nvidia software. Ran the same DVD, and miracles of
>> > miracles, media player now worked, media center still worked and the
>> > data
>> > stream capture show identical decode information with the cyberlink
>> > codec.
>> >
>> > I did the same experiment, but did not reboot the machine but just
>> > removed
>> > the Nvidia decoder and the media center started the dvd right at where
>> > it
>> > started even though there was not a Nvidia dvd decoder present in the
>> > machine. Which again proves it did not even use it when it was there.
>> > All
>> > the driver diagostics showed the nvidia drivers were not active, and
>> > the
>> > decoder data streams did not show any nvidia decoder data. So where is
>> > nvidia
>> > in this equation?
>> >
>> > Then I did the same experiment with the Nvidia blackbird tuner and
>> > installed
>> > the same decoders, this time with nvidia drivers, captured the same
>> > stream
>> > data. This time media center did come up with the controls for the
>> > nvidia
>> > decoder and media player worked correctly throughout. I did install
>> > the
>> > third party cyberlink decoder, not the ATI version. This failed to
>> > work
>> > with
>> > Media center similar to how the nvidia decoder did not work with the
>> > ATI
>> > card. I do not have an explanation for it, but there is a patch on
>> > cyberlink's website for the decoder, I tried it, but it did not help
>> > either.
>> > When I reviewed the stream data with the nvidia decoder in use, I oddly
>> > enough saw that the data stream WAS decoded by nvidia decoder.
>> >
>> > So once again, you tell me how I am wrong here. Please document a
>> > procedure
>> > other than "it works for me". I spent six hours on this, documented
>> > the
>> > steps on the way, verified the hardware and software and I still get
>> > the
>> > same
>> > conclusion.
>> >
>> > Again tell me in fully documented many with logs how you achieve this.
>> > Certainly Nvidia doesn't seem to want customers to user their decoder
>> > on
>> > non-nvidia hardware. By the way, I am sending the same information to
>> > ATI,
>> > Nvidia and Cyberlink, and I curious as to what response I get from
>> > other
>> > engineers.
>> >
>> > Also I know what drivers I used, ATI Catalyst 5.5 MCE, ATI / Cyberlink
>> > DVD
>> > Decoder 6.0.0.1311, Nvidia DVD Decoder 4.67.0, Nvidia gforce 71.84,
>> > Nvidia
>> > TV 1.20.45.
>> >
>> > JonP
>> >
>> > "Dana Cline - MVP" wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >> I'd be happy to show you a log (define what you mean by "log") of the
>> >> nVidia
>> >> DVD Decoder working on ATI display hardware - I'm currently using the
>> >> latest
>> >> nVidia decoder running on an ATI 9550 (driver version 5.4, I think).
>> >> Tell
>> >> me
>> >> what kind of log you want and I'll produce it...
>> >>
>> >> Dana Cline - MVP
>> >>
>> >> "JonP" <JonP@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> >> news:95372957-1917-40BA-9DE2-BC32C5142E3B@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > Did you actually read the whole message, and check the details. Is
>> >> > Nvidia
>> >> > making up facts about their own cards. Why would Microsoft, Nvidia,
>> >> > Dell
>> >> etc
>> >> > etc etc do this post details, documents SDKs, documents FAQs,
>> >> > resources
>> >> kits,
>> >> > shall I go on. Once again, go check it out read what I put down and
>> >> > show
>> >> me
>> >> > what is wrong, if there are any points that are incorrect, document
>> >> > them
>> >> with
>> >> > the actual details from Nvidia, ATI and Microsoft. I have done
>> >> > this, I
>> >> have
>> >> > all the logs, the SDKs, the hardware development kits, worked on
>> >> > actual
>> >> > development for years, not game playing.
>> >> >
>> >> > Show me the facts from the manufacturers and developers!
>> >> >
>> >> > Who can show a log documenting an Nvidia decoder working on a single
>> >> > non-nvidia video adapter system? I mean with complete driver
>> >> > details,
>> >> > version etc. WinMSD will give this as will the DVD decoder test
>> >> > utility
>> >> from
>> >> > microsoft, as will the DDK hardware driver test kit and other SDKs.
>> >> >
>> >> > JonP
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > "Chris Lanier" wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > You do not need an NVIDIA based graphics card/chipset/anything to
>> >> > > make
>> >> use
>> >> > > of NVIDIA's DVD Decoder. It will enable PureVideo on a 6 Series
>> >> > > card,
>> >> > > that's the only integration it has with NVIDIA hardware. It will
>> >> function
>> >> > > completely with ATI based hardware.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Of course NVIDIA would love you to pair their software with their
>> >> hardware,
>> >> > > but it is in *no way* needed to use the software and the decoders
>> >> > > will
>> >> > > function perfectly using an ATI based card. =)
>> >> > >
>> >> > > --
>> >> > > Chris Lanier
>> >> > > http://www.msmvps.com/chrisl/
>> >> > > http://www.thegreenbutton.com/
>> >> > >
>> >> > > "JonP" <JonP@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> >> > > news:162F5BA0-BAFB-46EC-8569-023CD602808E@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > > Franceso:
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > I suggest that you re-read the post that I put up in reply to
>> >> > > > your
>> >> > > > previous
>> >> > > > question. It distinctly gives you information as to why you are
>> >> having
>> >> > > > this
>> >> > > > problem now. Go through the procedure and you will be able to
>> >> > > > make
>> >> > > > it
>> >> > > > work
>> >> > > > again. First remove the Nvidia decoder it is NOT compatible
>> >> > > > with
>> >> > > > your
>> >> > > > video
>> >> > > > card!
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > The ATI / Cyberlink decoder is quite good in performance if you
>> >> install it
>> >> > > > correctly and have the valid MCE drivers and of course update to
>> >> > > > the
>> >> new
>> >> > > > release which just came out a few weeks ago. It is quite
>> >> > > > excellent
>> >> > > > to
>> >> > > > use.
>> >> > > > If you do not agree with this, this benchmark, and try other
>> >> > > > decoders,
>> >> I
>> >> > > > have given a link for you to start the benchmarking procedure.
>> >> > > > You
>> >> can
>> >> > > > ask
>> >> > > > more questions if you do not understand what I have written.
>> >> > > > But
>> >> > > > do
>> >> not
>> >> > > > install software that is distinctly developed for another
>> >> > > > hardware
>> >> > > > platform,
>> >> > > > it cause you nothing but grief as you have found out. I am
>> >> > > > afraid
>> >> that DC
>> >> > > > previously gave you bad advice without even looking at the
>> >> > > > details
>> >> > > > of
>> >> the
>> >> > > > hardware that you noted in your message.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Once again, you can ask more questions, and I will do my best to
>> >> answer.
>> >> > > > I
>> >> > > > suggest right now after you uninstall the Nvidia DVD decoder,
>> >> > > > you
>> >> install
>> >> > > > the
>> >> > > > Catalyst 5.5 MCD driver, (there are two versions, the control
>> >> > > > center
>> >> > > > edition
>> >> > > > and control panel editon, I recommend the control panel edition,
>> >> > > > it
>> >> > > > is
>> >> > > > generally more stable) the links are
>> >> > > > http://www2.ati.com/drivers/5-5_mce_dd_cp.exe (control center
>> >> > > > editon)
>> >> and
>> >> > > > at
>> >> > > > http://www2.ati.com/drivers/5-5_mce_dd_ccc_enu.exe (the control
>> >> > > > panel
>> >> > > > editon)
>> >> > > > , the DVD Decoder is at
>> >> > > > http://www2.ati.com/drivers/atiCDwiz.exe . It is a two step
>> >> > > > download,
>> >> and
>> >> > > > requires you original ATI CDROM to install the DVD decoder, you
>> >> > > > do
>> >> not
>> >> > > > have
>> >> > > > to uninstall another decoders to use the ATI / Cyberlink
>> >> > > > optimised
>> >> > > > decoder,
>> >> > > > other than the issue of compatibility with the Nvidia DVD
>> >> > > > decoder.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Here is my previous answer, please read it and follow through
>> >> > > > the
>> >> links
>> >> > > > and
>> >> > > > verify the DVD decoder software with the Microsoft software.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > I wrote in answer to your previous question:
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Please note , that Francesco has an ATI9800Pro which is NOT an
>> >> > > > Nvidia
>> >> > > > chipset so therefore is not compatible with ATI products. Which
>> >> > > > is
>> >> fairly
>> >> > > > obvious for hardware.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Now the first step should be in checking compatibility of
>> >> > > > decoders,
>> >> not
>> >> > > > all
>> >> > > > decoders are compatible with all hardware (oddly enough), to
>> >> > > > deal
>> >> > > > with
>> >> > > > this
>> >> > > > issue Microsoft has written a marvellous utility called the
>> >> > > > Windows
>> >> > > > XP
>> >> > > > Video
>> >> > > > Decoder Checkup which you can check information out at
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/portablemediacenter/decoder.mspx
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > and download through the windows download centre directly at
>> >> > > > this
>> >> > > > link
>> >> > > >
>> >> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=DE1491AC-0AB6-4990-
>> >> 943D-627E6ADE9FCB&displaylang=en


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