Re: DO NOT BUY FROM ZTGROUP!

From: Thomas Tomiczek [MVP] (t.tomiczek_at_thona-consulting.com)
Date: 03/01/04 

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 18:18:32 +0100

Phil,

you do not seriously to expect the poster to know that news servers do age
content, right?

I mean, he things a graphics card can damage a hard disk (without frying the
whole board), so what is he supposed to know about news actually being
thrown out of the server after some time? 

-- 
Regards
Thomas Tomiczek
THONA Software & Consulting Ltd.
(Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)
(CTO PowerNodes Ltd.)
---
Still waiting for ObjectSpaces? Try the EntityBroker today - more versatile,
more powerfull.
And something in use NOW. for the projects you have to deliver - NOW.
"Phil Taylor" <philipt@private-citizen-sorta.com> wrote in message
news:OCX5Vz6$DHA.4060@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> I dont see my responses as threats or censorship.
>
> come on, I asked to see the facts laid out wrt ZT hard disk failures being
> at all related to ATI eHome Wonders.
>
> and instead of facts, I get accused of censorship? I am talking through
the
> problem, not censoring. thats 180 degrees the opposite. can we agree on
> that?
>
> I still fail to hear one real connection between ZT hard disk failures
> and/or ZT support policies and the ATI product in question as far as
causing
> the end-users problems.
>
> please do reply with said facts, as if there is really an issue then we
can
> try to solve it.
>
> in terms of posts falling out of this newsgroup, thats part of the normal
> aging of this server. these posts are always available via the Google
Usenet
> archive, so claiming censorship over news-server aging policies is a litle
> over the top. there is no censorship, threatening of MS, or any other
> orchestration on this board. period.
>
> on to the new facts.
>
> MCE 2002, aka "FreeStyle" released in Oct of 2002, as far as I recall.
>
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2002/Oct02/10-29MediaCenterLaunch2002PR.asp
>
> MCE 2004, aka "Harmony" released in Sept of 2003, as far as I recall.
>
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2003/sep03/09-30MediaCenter2004LaunchPR.asp
>
> I count that as 11 months delay in ATIs official support for MCE. not 2
> years. please be accurate in your criticisms.
>
> yes, ATI missed the launch of FreeStyle. when MCE 2004 launched I made a
> large post wrt ATI support for MCE that stated that and included
information
> about ATI products and ATI drivers for MCE. and about the fact that AIW
> support was "in progress" and was not clean. no holding back there.
>
> do note that post also included the fact that Radeon display cards *are*
> fully supported today. and the AIW cards are supported as display cards,
its
> the tuner part of the card thats problematic. I even pointed out where
> people could go who want to perform field-upgrades for AIWs to be helpful.
>
> to go from there to claiming ATI doesnt support MCE isnt accurate. to say
> ATI doesnt support MCE as you feel they should, thats accurate.
>
> and in the AIW case you might have a point. and your point would be better
> served by staying on-message and not barraging everyone with these
illogical
> claims.
>
> given MCE is an OEM only product, its not illogical to see ATI has focused
> on the OEM channel and not the retail upgrade channel. while that may be
> causing issues for some in the community, to jump from there to having
> issues with all our products is a far leap.
>
> "Tom" <tintruder@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:ezG8fI1$DHA.2800@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> > It's interesting to see the amount of pressure ATI brings upon assorted
> > boards to suppress and censor Anti-ATI postings.
> >
> > They have done it here, at extremetech, at Rage3d, at TGB, and others.
> >
> > You can see in this thread that some posts have been deleted from the
> > thread, but the contents of the "missing" posts are contained in the
> > subsequent replies.
> >
> > Phil, who at ATI orchestrates this sort of CENSORSHIP for you? What do
> they
> > threaten Microsoft with?
> >
> > Too bad ATI can't use all that time and energy to satisfy customers
> instead
> > of stifling dissent.
> >
> > Too bad "ZT Group" can't mount the same sort of campaign to delete the
> > thread about their company which is really based on the bad experience
of
> > just one user.
> > I'm sure ZT Group is actually a satisfactory system integrator despite
the
> > complaint.
> >
> > I brought up the ATI tie-in simply because of the "coincidence" that
> ZTGroup
> > is the only PC OEM ATI could come up with as a buyer of their MCE HW
> encoder
> > products and the first time I ever saw the ZT Group name in print, it
was
> > here and it was highly negative. The connotoaion would be calling into
> > question the ATI ability or dedication to selling MCE support into
> > first-tier OEMs...of which there isn't any on the HW encoding side and
> just
> > one experiment on the Encode side.
> >
> > Late to the market. Everybody else already selected other vendors.
> >
> > But let's skip to the complaints about ATI overall........
> >
> > What are the gripes about ATI in particular?
> >
> > Well, it's the issue of support for the superb XP-MCE app.  Many
> developers
> > who use ATI cards can't "develop" because they can't get drivers.
> Upgraders
> > spend a lot of money and end up with MCE disabled on their PC.
> >
> > Last fall, TWO YEARS after MCE was originally released, ATI loyalists
are
> > excited that their cards can work with MCE2004 according to ATI Press
> > Releases and ATI "employee" posts on various boards...
> >
> > Big announcements, big expectations...ATI made sure all the MCE sites
saw
> > the news releases
> > Tricky wording on MCE "compatability"...people bought your products
based
> > upon this
> > ATI insider compiles "Frogboy" Encode MCE driver set from publically
> > available downloads.
> > ATI coerces websites to ban posting of download links...they don't want
> > Encode in the free.
> > ATI gets Dell to change available downloads so you can't get all of it
any
> > more.
> > Publically made "promises" early on...people continue to buy products
> > thinking MCE will work.
> > ATI "Beta" test releases don't work or are abyssmal on less than
> > super-premium systems.
> > ATI reacts to complaints and questions by "punishing" participants.
> > Participants say "hell with this crap" and defect to Avermedia or
> > Hauppague...speak up about ATI attitude
> > Hauppague and Avermedia release continuing stream of WHQL drivers while
> ATI
> > still refuses, blaming Microsoft.
> > Message Board complaints soar about ATI
> > Nobody else(OEM) using ATI MCE components.
> > Comments about this trigger ATI "undercover" board trolling in support
of
> > ATI
> > Avermedia and Hauppague continue to provide drivers and support.
> > ATI releases at least 2 revisions of newer drivers, including MMC
> > "improvements" which show that ATI is focused more on MMC than on MCE.
> > ATI again claims "MCE Compatability" with weasel-words...more consumers
> > tricked.
> > ATI troll brags about "ZT Group" sales...doesn't say how many eHWs ZT
> bought
> > though.
> > eHomeWonder starts to leak out on eBay and some other small resellers
> > closely paralleling the "Stealth Marketing" program pitched to ATI
months
> > ago.
> > ATI insults TGB readers with Q&A "answers" that say nothing.
> > ATI introduces HDTV gear using NXT2004 chipset that has been out for 2+
> > years.
> > Another BIG press session....ATI uses marketing might to promote their
new
> > gear.
> > Oddly, the HDTVWonder does no more than competing cards which have been
> out
> > for 2 years.
> > ExtremeTech story tells of immaturity, fragility and limitations of ATI
> HDTV
> > software.
> > Comments about ATI "too little-too late"  disappear from sites where ATI
> > buys advertising.
> > Other stories pop up about ATI showing off array of HDTV gear, but
details
> > scarce...ATI coercing publishers into silence.
> > Interestingly, the various threads at AVSForum lay out the fact the ATI
> HDTV
> > gear is truly nothing new.
> > Until a number of companies agree on a coordinated timetable, the
release
> of
> > DigitalCable Ready and CableCard (or whatever the providers decide to
call
> > it) will be delayed.  There is a huge issue surrounding inventory of
> certain
> > items in stock or scheduled for production affecting this and it may
take
> > all the way to the FCC deadline to iron out the details.
> >
> >
> > So, basically, there were BIG PROMISES, lots of MISINFORMATION, a dose
of
> > CENSORSHIP and COERCION, which caused a LOSS OF CUSTOMERS, a bunch of
BAD
> > PUBLICITY, and a whole load of BAD FEELINGS about ATI.
> >
> > Like I said before, there is internal dissent at ATI, confirmed by email
> > from ATI insiders.  The reasons for holding off release of MCE "Encode"
> > drivers are not genuine.  There is more to the story and this story has
an
> > impact of legitimate concern to owners of ATI AIW cards now and in the
> > future.
> >
> > About you, Phil,  nobody has questioned your integrity or
> contributions...I
> > have said before I consider you one of the "good guys".
> >
> > I would like to see the "marketing" drones listen to you and your peers
a
> > lot more, because that is where the real big accomplishments in the
> > developer and enthusiast communities come from.
> >
> > You have tempted us several times, though, with promises of "soon" for
the
> > MCE Encode release...where is it?  What is the truth behind the issue?
Why
> > the delays?
> >
> > The issue of mistrust and deception is really bigger than the simple
lack
> of
> > driver support. Release the driver and explain the issues behind it.
> >
> > You'd be amazed how fast the issue could fade away....
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Phil Taylor" <ptaylor@private-citizen.com> wrote in message
> > news:OWkJMNw$DHA.2348@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > > no, I am not in PR. perhaps if you search these newsgroups archives,
you
> > > will see my posts. the most major one wrt MCE was about the breadth of
> ATI
> > > support for MCE 2004 from back in Sept-Oct last fall. as well as other
> > posts
> > > trying to be helpful. so I am not a new arrival here.
> > >
> > > dont prejudge me because of your being upset with ATI over the AIW
> driver
> > > issue, thats just plain unfair.
> > >
> > > I am in fact a newsgroup MVP for DirectX technologies and a past MS
> > employee
> > > on the DirectX team, first as D3D technical evangelist and ending as
DX
> > SDK
> > > PM and PM for Managed-DX. and wrote the Driving DirectX MSDN colum for
> > about
> > > 2 years. all before I joined ATI. so I have some bona fides as far as
> > > helping people. go ahead and search the DX groups and see the >5000
> posts
> > I
> > > have made over the last few years helping people. there are more than
a
> > few
> > > testimonials as to my help.
> > >
> > > having now defended myself from various ad hominems, lets move on to
the
> > > issue at hand.
> > >
> > > wrt comments that ZT and hard disk failures are somehow related to the
> ATI
> > > eHome Wonder component in the machine, lets consider, ask questions,
> > gather
> > > data, and make a judgement as to what is likely and what.
> > >
> > > my factual claim is, regardless of the support policies of ZT, the
hard
> > disk
> > > failures on their machines are hard to correlate to TV tuner/capture
> > cards.
> > > and that would be regardless of vendor choice for said component.
> > >
> > > please provide back up for your claim there is some correlation, so we
> the
> > > community can judge and learn. please provide a technical basis for
said
> > > assertion.
> > >
> > > while I sympathize with the feelings of a dedicated few who are
longing
> > for
> > > AIW drivers compatibile with MCE; that yearning for additional support
> is
> > > not a reason to cast doubts and aspersion across all our other product
> > > lines, as you and Tom persist in doing.
> > >
> > > call a spade a spade.
> > >
> > > say we have not made good progress with AIW driver support for the MCE
> add
> > > on market. thats fair.
> > >
> > > going from there to tar'ing and feather'ing all ATI products, from
9xxx
> > > Radeon display cards, to eHome Wonders, or to the new ATI HD Wonder -
> > thats
> > > unfair, doesnt make sense, and just plain doesnt help make your case.
> in
> > > case you havent noticed, the 9600 and 9800 based products kick *** on
> PS
> > > 2.0 gaming as well as previous shader generations. so going from "I am
> > > unhappy that ATI doesnt provide upgrade support for AIW in MCE" to
"all
> > ATI
> > > products are bad" is not rational and you are just plain giving out
bad
> > > advice to people.
> > >
> > > so if you feel any real linkage is possible between ZT hard disk
> failures
> > > and eHome Wonders - lay out your facts. I am completely reasonable in
> > > listening to depictions of actual issues and giving good advice on how
> to
> > > proceed. my >5000 posts prove that, incontrovertibly.
> > >
> > > I do want to comment on the trend line here before we let this go to
> bed.
> > > similar product attack threads have been seen here before, eg the
eHome
> > > Wonder for sale thread. and the extremetech.com forums shut down a
> similar
> > > attack thread on the HD Wonder card as part of the preview of that
> > product.
> > > so this is at least the 3rd time product attack threads have eminated
> from
> > > unrelated threads that involve ATI in some other form. that represents
a
> > > pattern and trend that isnt really justified and just isnt likely to
> help
> > > get support any faster. such threads do need to be replied to and
gently
> > > pointed out how illogical they are.
> > >
> > > again, call a spade a spade ( as I am willing to do wrt to AIW MCE
> > support )
> > > and admit this is sour grapes and has no basis in fact wrt the product
> at
> > > hand.
> > >
> > > I think in the long run you are going to be surprised by what ATI is
> > doing,
> > > in the positve, wrt to supporting MCE. I know thats hard to prove
> > currently
> > > given the AIW driver support history but thats only 1 product line out
> of
> > > several we offer for MCE.
> > >
> > > "CrAzY" <_MCE_@MobStarz.Com> wrote in message
> > > news:%23cGXztm$DHA.2660@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > > > Welcome the Newsgroups Philip - glad you can join us for
conversations
> > > that
> > > > protect and promote your products.
> > > >
> > > > However, I do see how a company that has poor tech support can be
> > related
> > > to
> > > > the only company to agree to use the ATI eHome Wonder cards - if the
> > only
> > > > company that will use them in an MCE has poor tech support - are you
> > going
> > > > to continue to promote that company? It's a shame that you have to
> come
> > > here
> > > > in attempts to do damage control for a company that is loosing
> end-user
> > > > support in the MCE realm ... Oh wait, not only in MCE, but in the
Home
> > > > Theater PC realm all together. The inability to support simple
> requested
> > > > features in driver releases has gone unheard, for way to long ...
> > > >
> > > > Again - the only company to use the eHome Wonder also has poor
> customer
> > > > service ... you're obviously in some sort of public relations, and
I'm
> > > > certain you're familiar with marketing strategies - numbers can
always
> > be
> > > > skewed to your advantage ... well -
> > > >
> > > > ZTGroup = Poor Tech Support
> > > > ZTGroup = Only OEM to use ATI eHome Wonder
> > > >
> > > > I'll let people come to their own deductions for the rest ...
> > > >
> > > > I'm with Tom on this one and notice your only replies here thus far
> have
> > > > been to combat any negative statements towards ATI ... what a shame
> ...
> > > >
> > > > -- 
> > > > ============
> > > > ::     CrAzY     ::
> > > > ============
> > > > "Phil Taylor" <ptaylor@private-citizen.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:e7l4ozU$DHA.3536@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > > > > again, hard disk failures dont relate to capture or graphics
cards.
> > > > >
> > > > > sorry the qa torqued you, I cant change that.
> > > > >
> > > > > "Tom" <tintruder@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:OmHVrcO$DHA.4060@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > > > > > Well, somebody a while back did proudly announce ZT Group was
the
> > only
> > > > OEM
> > > > > > customer ATI managed to land for the eHW card.....sounds like a
> > good,
> > > > > > competent group to associate the ATI name with.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nonetheless, I will continue to steer people away from ATI with
> > > respect
> > > > to
> > > > > > MCE as the opportunity arises until you folks change your
> practices,
> > > > > support
> > > > > > users who spent a bundle for your products, and be honest for a
> > change
> > > > > about
> > > > > > the topic and supporting facts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I even get flattering emails from people claiming to be ATI
> > employees
> > > > (and
> > > > > > the originating IP Addresses suggest they may really be) who
agree
> > > > > > wholeheartedly that you folks made a bad decision and stuck with
> it
> > > for
> > > > > all
> > > > > > the wrong reasons.  They hate seeing their company get a bad rap
> for
> > > > > > something so easily fixed, but realize that if internal
> common-sense
> > > > won't
> > > > > > solve the problem, perhaps external bad PR will.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The Q&A your folks authored for TheGreenButton.com was so
> incredibly
> > > > > > condescending and disrespectful that it probably did more to
sour
> > > people
> > > > > on
> > > > > > ATI than anything I could say.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Any other big OEM sales with those eHWs?
> > > > > > Seriously, I'm glad you are selling some, but you'd take away
the
> > > > > > "grey-market" smell if you'd support customers with drivers on
the
> > > > website
> > > > > > and maybe even a little discussion of the card from a technical
> > > > > perspective
> > > > > > rather than just the marketing fluff.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > MCE etc. isn't going away, and if you guys would pull your heads
> > out,
> > > it
> > > > > > would only take a few genuine, helpful, positive gestures to the
> MCE
> > > > > > enthusiast community to start mending your reputation and earn
> back
> > > some
> > > > > of
> > > > > > the trust (and revenue) that has been needlessly squandered.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Phil, there's too much stuff changing in the market. Too many
> > > competing
> > > > > > technologies and emergent choices. You guys need to offer
> consumers
> > a
> > > > > better
> > > > > > roadmap because too many of ATIs efforts seem to be reinventing
> the
> > > > wheel
> > > > > > and moving away from the mainstream.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We know you have good hardware. No argument.  But the rest of
your
> > > > > > cometitors, even those with headquarters 8000 miles away in
Asia,
> > > > instead
> > > > > of
> > > > > > right next door, are kicking your *** with new products,
> > tantalizing
> > > > > > information, and damn good, highly responsive customer support.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > For instance, your new HDTV Wonder... you didn't do anything to
> > > > > > differentiate it from the other HDTV cards that have been on the
> > > market
> > > > > for
> > > > > > 2 years already. If it has an advantage, perhaps somebody ought
to
> > say
> > > > so.
> > > > > > What have we been waiting two more years for? OTA HDTV?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And while you guys sure like to keep secrets, there must be some
> > > "good"
> > > > > > things about upcoming products you could tell us to create
enough
> > > > > excitement
> > > > > > for us to wait for ATI rather than go buy competing products.
> > > > > > Speaking of ATI secrets, you gotta do something to offset the
> > > > ExtremeTech
> > > > > > report that says the HDTVWonder app is not yet integrated into
MMC
> > and
> > > > > there
> > > > > > is no working dual-mode Guide yet....boy THAT was good
> press....get
> > a
> > > > $250
> > > > > > HDTV card and have drivers that suck...how'd you manage to let
> that
> > > > tidbit
> > > > > > out?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I guess the bottom line is that one pissed off customer has more
> > > effect
> > > > > than
> > > > > > 100 satisfied customers, huh?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Philip Taylor [ATI]" <ptaylor@online.newsgroup-poster.ati.com>
> > wrote
> > > in
> > > > > > message news:OqUKHnL$DHA.2316@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> > > > > > > Its hard to see there is any direct linkage between failures
on
> > disk
> > > > and
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > capture card.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think its a bit unfair to use this post to forward your
agenda
> > > Tom.
> > > > > Its
> > > > > > > unfortunate that your unhappiness over the AIW driver
situation
> is
> > > > > > clouding
> > > > > > > your opinion of ATI, but be clear about thats whats driving
your
> > > > > repeated
> > > > > > > comments here and in other forums.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "Tom" <tintruder@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:eyGchXI$DHA.3500@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> > > > > > > > Interestingly, ZT Group is one of the OEMs who has chosen to
> use
> > > the
> > > > > ATI
> > > > > > > > eHomeWonder tuner.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Everybody else uses Avermedia, Emuzed or Hauppague (except
> that
> > > one
> > > > > Dell
> > > > > > > > using the customized AIW9000 and secret software).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "ztgroupsucks" <junkmail1513@mail.NOSPAM.com> wrote in
message
> > > > > > > > news:%235ZHpGI$DHA.1212@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> > > > > > > > > I helped my brother configure and purchase a MCE computer
> > > through
> > > > ZT
> > > > > > > > > Group. I figured they use name brand parts and simply
> assemble
> > > the
> > > > > > > > > computer so I had little concerns. WELL what a mistake
that
> > > was!!!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Besides several little problems that they could not
resolve
> > the
> > > > > system
> > > > > > > > > died one day. It was reporting a READ DISK ERROR on boot.
OK
> > > > sounds
> > > > > > > > > like a Hard Drive failure, should not be a problem because
> > this
> > > > > > > > > system was configured with a MIRROR RAID (2x80GB drive
> > > Mirrored).
> > > > > > > > > Well I was wrong again.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > To make a very long story short we sent the computer back
to
> > be
> > > > > fixed.
> > > > > > > > > They could not retrieve ANY data from either hard drive
> > > (remember
> > > > > > > > > these were mirrored) and further more could not determine
> what
> > > > > caused
> > > > > > > > > the problem. The technician kept telling me that
"computers
> > are
> > > > not
> > > > > > > > > perfect" and a RAID MIRROR is not a guarantee of data
> > > redundancy.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > After waiting almost a full week after it arrived at ZT
> Group
> > > they
> > > > > > > > > could not tell me what went wrong and kept stating
> "computers
> > > are
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > perfect". They refused to refund my brothers money and
would
> > not
> > > > > > > > > replace any hardware cause they could not find a problem.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Furthermore at least 5+ hours of our time was wasted
trying
> to
> > > > > > > > > troubleshoot the system over the phone. The tech support
> perso
> > n
> > > > > > > > > simply had no clue.. He tried to tell me that the data on
> one
> > > hard
> > > > > > > > > drive became corrupt and therefore "when mirrored" to the
> > other
> > > > disk
> > > > > > > > > other disk was too corrupt. I explained that MIRRORED
drives
> > do
> > > > not
> > > > > > > > > copy from one disk to the other but the RAID controller
> simply
> > > > > > > > > duplicates the data and sends it to each disk therefore
each
> > > disk
> > > > is
> > > > > > > > > independent of the others failure.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I WOULD NEVER EVER DO BUSINESS AGAIN WITH ZT GROUP!!!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > MCE User..
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