Re: DO NOT BUY FROM ZTGROUP!

From: Phil Taylor (philipt_at_private-citizen-sorta.com)
Date: 03/01/04 

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2004 08:47:02 -0800

I dont see my responses as threats or censorship.

come on, I asked to see the facts laid out wrt ZT hard disk failures being
at all related to ATI eHome Wonders.

and instead of facts, I get accused of censorship? I am talking through the
problem, not censoring. thats 180 degrees the opposite. can we agree on
that?

I still fail to hear one real connection between ZT hard disk failures
and/or ZT support policies and the ATI product in question as far as causing
the end-users problems.

please do reply with said facts, as if there is really an issue then we can
try to solve it.

in terms of posts falling out of this newsgroup, thats part of the normal
aging of this server. these posts are always available via the Google Usenet
archive, so claiming censorship over news-server aging policies is a litle
over the top. there is no censorship, threatening of MS, or any other
orchestration on this board. period.

on to the new facts.

MCE 2002, aka "FreeStyle" released in Oct of 2002, as far as I recall.
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2002/Oct02/10-29MediaCenterLaunch2002PR.asp

MCE 2004, aka "Harmony" released in Sept of 2003, as far as I recall.
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2003/sep03/09-30MediaCenter2004LaunchPR.asp

I count that as 11 months delay in ATIs official support for MCE. not 2
years. please be accurate in your criticisms.

yes, ATI missed the launch of FreeStyle. when MCE 2004 launched I made a
large post wrt ATI support for MCE that stated that and included information
about ATI products and ATI drivers for MCE. and about the fact that AIW
support was "in progress" and was not clean. no holding back there.

do note that post also included the fact that Radeon display cards *are*
fully supported today. and the AIW cards are supported as display cards, its
the tuner part of the card thats problematic. I even pointed out where
people could go who want to perform field-upgrades for AIWs to be helpful.

to go from there to claiming ATI doesnt support MCE isnt accurate. to say
ATI doesnt support MCE as you feel they should, thats accurate.

and in the AIW case you might have a point. and your point would be better
served by staying on-message and not barraging everyone with these illogical
claims.

given MCE is an OEM only product, its not illogical to see ATI has focused
on the OEM channel and not the retail upgrade channel. while that may be
causing issues for some in the community, to jump from there to having
issues with all our products is a far leap.

"Tom" <tintruder@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ezG8fI1$DHA.2800@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> It's interesting to see the amount of pressure ATI brings upon assorted
> boards to suppress and censor Anti-ATI postings.
>
> They have done it here, at extremetech, at Rage3d, at TGB, and others.
>
> You can see in this thread that some posts have been deleted from the
> thread, but the contents of the "missing" posts are contained in the
> subsequent replies.
>
> Phil, who at ATI orchestrates this sort of CENSORSHIP for you? What do
they
> threaten Microsoft with?
>
> Too bad ATI can't use all that time and energy to satisfy customers
instead
> of stifling dissent.
>
> Too bad "ZT Group" can't mount the same sort of campaign to delete the
> thread about their company which is really based on the bad experience of
> just one user.
> I'm sure ZT Group is actually a satisfactory system integrator despite the
> complaint.
>
> I brought up the ATI tie-in simply because of the "coincidence" that
ZTGroup
> is the only PC OEM ATI could come up with as a buyer of their MCE HW
encoder
> products and the first time I ever saw the ZT Group name in print, it was
> here and it was highly negative. The connotoaion would be calling into
> question the ATI ability or dedication to selling MCE support into
> first-tier OEMs...of which there isn't any on the HW encoding side and
just
> one experiment on the Encode side.
>
> Late to the market. Everybody else already selected other vendors.
>
> But let's skip to the complaints about ATI overall........
>
> What are the gripes about ATI in particular?
>
> Well, it's the issue of support for the superb XP-MCE app. Many
developers
> who use ATI cards can't "develop" because they can't get drivers.
Upgraders
> spend a lot of money and end up with MCE disabled on their PC.
>
> Last fall, TWO YEARS after MCE was originally released, ATI loyalists are
> excited that their cards can work with MCE2004 according to ATI Press
> Releases and ATI "employee" posts on various boards...
>
> Big announcements, big expectations...ATI made sure all the MCE sites saw
> the news releases
> Tricky wording on MCE "compatability"...people bought your products based
> upon this
> ATI insider compiles "Frogboy" Encode MCE driver set from publically
> available downloads.
> ATI coerces websites to ban posting of download links...they don't want
> Encode in the free.
> ATI gets Dell to change available downloads so you can't get all of it any
> more.
> Publically made "promises" early on...people continue to buy products
> thinking MCE will work.
> ATI "Beta" test releases don't work or are abyssmal on less than
> super-premium systems.
> ATI reacts to complaints and questions by "punishing" participants.
> Participants say "hell with this crap" and defect to Avermedia or
> Hauppague...speak up about ATI attitude
> Hauppague and Avermedia release continuing stream of WHQL drivers while
ATI
> still refuses, blaming Microsoft.
> Message Board complaints soar about ATI
> Nobody else(OEM) using ATI MCE components.
> Comments about this trigger ATI "undercover" board trolling in support of
> ATI
> Avermedia and Hauppague continue to provide drivers and support.
> ATI releases at least 2 revisions of newer drivers, including MMC
> "improvements" which show that ATI is focused more on MMC than on MCE.
> ATI again claims "MCE Compatability" with weasel-words...more consumers
> tricked.
> ATI troll brags about "ZT Group" sales...doesn't say how many eHWs ZT
bought
> though.
> eHomeWonder starts to leak out on eBay and some other small resellers
> closely paralleling the "Stealth Marketing" program pitched to ATI months
> ago.
> ATI insults TGB readers with Q&A "answers" that say nothing.
> ATI introduces HDTV gear using NXT2004 chipset that has been out for 2+
> years.
> Another BIG press session....ATI uses marketing might to promote their new
> gear.
> Oddly, the HDTVWonder does no more than competing cards which have been
out
> for 2 years.
> ExtremeTech story tells of immaturity, fragility and limitations of ATI
HDTV
> software.
> Comments about ATI "too little-too late" disappear from sites where ATI
> buys advertising.
> Other stories pop up about ATI showing off array of HDTV gear, but details
> scarce...ATI coercing publishers into silence.
> Interestingly, the various threads at AVSForum lay out the fact the ATI
HDTV
> gear is truly nothing new.
> Until a number of companies agree on a coordinated timetable, the release
of
> DigitalCable Ready and CableCard (or whatever the providers decide to call
> it) will be delayed. There is a huge issue surrounding inventory of
certain
> items in stock or scheduled for production affecting this and it may take
> all the way to the FCC deadline to iron out the details.
>
>
> So, basically, there were BIG PROMISES, lots of MISINFORMATION, a dose of
> CENSORSHIP and COERCION, which caused a LOSS OF CUSTOMERS, a bunch of BAD
> PUBLICITY, and a whole load of BAD FEELINGS about ATI.
>
> Like I said before, there is internal dissent at ATI, confirmed by email
> from ATI insiders. The reasons for holding off release of MCE "Encode"
> drivers are not genuine. There is more to the story and this story has an
> impact of legitimate concern to owners of ATI AIW cards now and in the
> future.
>
> About you, Phil, nobody has questioned your integrity or
contributions...I
> have said before I consider you one of the "good guys".
>
> I would like to see the "marketing" drones listen to you and your peers a
> lot more, because that is where the real big accomplishments in the
> developer and enthusiast communities come from.
>
> You have tempted us several times, though, with promises of "soon" for the
> MCE Encode release...where is it? What is the truth behind the issue? Why
> the delays?
>
> The issue of mistrust and deception is really bigger than the simple lack
of
> driver support. Release the driver and explain the issues behind it.
>
> You'd be amazed how fast the issue could fade away....
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Phil Taylor" <ptaylor@private-citizen.com> wrote in message
> news:OWkJMNw$DHA.2348@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > no, I am not in PR. perhaps if you search these newsgroups archives, you
> > will see my posts. the most major one wrt MCE was about the breadth of
ATI
> > support for MCE 2004 from back in Sept-Oct last fall. as well as other
> posts
> > trying to be helpful. so I am not a new arrival here.
> >
> > dont prejudge me because of your being upset with ATI over the AIW
driver
> > issue, thats just plain unfair.
> >
> > I am in fact a newsgroup MVP for DirectX technologies and a past MS
> employee
> > on the DirectX team, first as D3D technical evangelist and ending as DX
> SDK
> > PM and PM for Managed-DX. and wrote the Driving DirectX MSDN colum for
> about
> > 2 years. all before I joined ATI. so I have some bona fides as far as
> > helping people. go ahead and search the DX groups and see the >5000
posts
> I
> > have made over the last few years helping people. there are more than a
> few
> > testimonials as to my help.
> >
> > having now defended myself from various ad hominems, lets move on to the
> > issue at hand.
> >
> > wrt comments that ZT and hard disk failures are somehow related to the
ATI
> > eHome Wonder component in the machine, lets consider, ask questions,
> gather
> > data, and make a judgement as to what is likely and what.
> >
> > my factual claim is, regardless of the support policies of ZT, the hard
> disk
> > failures on their machines are hard to correlate to TV tuner/capture
> cards.
> > and that would be regardless of vendor choice for said component.
> >
> > please provide back up for your claim there is some correlation, so we
the
> > community can judge and learn. please provide a technical basis for said
> > assertion.
> >
> > while I sympathize with the feelings of a dedicated few who are longing
> for
> > AIW drivers compatibile with MCE; that yearning for additional support
is
> > not a reason to cast doubts and aspersion across all our other product
> > lines, as you and Tom persist in doing.
> >
> > call a spade a spade.
> >
> > say we have not made good progress with AIW driver support for the MCE
add
> > on market. thats fair.
> >
> > going from there to tar'ing and feather'ing all ATI products, from 9xxx
> > Radeon display cards, to eHome Wonders, or to the new ATI HD Wonder -
> thats
> > unfair, doesnt make sense, and just plain doesnt help make your case.
in
> > case you havent noticed, the 9600 and 9800 based products kick *** on
PS
> > 2.0 gaming as well as previous shader generations. so going from "I am
> > unhappy that ATI doesnt provide upgrade support for AIW in MCE" to "all
> ATI
> > products are bad" is not rational and you are just plain giving out bad
> > advice to people.
> >
> > so if you feel any real linkage is possible between ZT hard disk
failures
> > and eHome Wonders - lay out your facts. I am completely reasonable in
> > listening to depictions of actual issues and giving good advice on how
to
> > proceed. my >5000 posts prove that, incontrovertibly.
> >
> > I do want to comment on the trend line here before we let this go to
bed.
> > similar product attack threads have been seen here before, eg the eHome
> > Wonder for sale thread. and the extremetech.com forums shut down a
similar
> > attack thread on the HD Wonder card as part of the preview of that
> product.
> > so this is at least the 3rd time product attack threads have eminated
from
> > unrelated threads that involve ATI in some other form. that represents a
> > pattern and trend that isnt really justified and just isnt likely to
help
> > get support any faster. such threads do need to be replied to and gently
> > pointed out how illogical they are.
> >
> > again, call a spade a spade ( as I am willing to do wrt to AIW MCE
> support )
> > and admit this is sour grapes and has no basis in fact wrt the product
at
> > hand.
> >
> > I think in the long run you are going to be surprised by what ATI is
> doing,
> > in the positve, wrt to supporting MCE. I know thats hard to prove
> currently
> > given the AIW driver support history but thats only 1 product line out
of
> > several we offer for MCE.
> >
> > "CrAzY" <_MCE_@MobStarz.Com> wrote in message
> > news:%23cGXztm$DHA.2660@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > > Welcome the Newsgroups Philip - glad you can join us for conversations
> > that
> > > protect and promote your products.
> > >
> > > However, I do see how a company that has poor tech support can be
> related
> > to
> > > the only company to agree to use the ATI eHome Wonder cards - if the
> only
> > > company that will use them in an MCE has poor tech support - are you
> going
> > > to continue to promote that company? It's a shame that you have to
come
> > here
> > > in attempts to do damage control for a company that is loosing
end-user
> > > support in the MCE realm ... Oh wait, not only in MCE, but in the Home
> > > Theater PC realm all together. The inability to support simple
requested
> > > features in driver releases has gone unheard, for way to long ...
> > >
> > > Again - the only company to use the eHome Wonder also has poor
customer
> > > service ... you're obviously in some sort of public relations, and I'm
> > > certain you're familiar with marketing strategies - numbers can always
> be
> > > skewed to your advantage ... well -
> > >
> > > ZTGroup = Poor Tech Support
> > > ZTGroup = Only OEM to use ATI eHome Wonder
> > >
> > > I'll let people come to their own deductions for the rest ...
> > >
> > > I'm with Tom on this one and notice your only replies here thus far
have
> > > been to combat any negative statements towards ATI ... what a shame
...
> > >
> > > --
> > > ============
> > > :: CrAzY ::
> > > ============
> > > "Phil Taylor" <ptaylor@private-citizen.com> wrote in message
> > > news:e7l4ozU$DHA.3536@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > > > again, hard disk failures dont relate to capture or graphics cards.
> > > >
> > > > sorry the qa torqued you, I cant change that.
> > > >
> > > > "Tom" <tintruder@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:OmHVrcO$DHA.4060@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> > > > > Well, somebody a while back did proudly announce ZT Group was the
> only
> > > OEM
> > > > > customer ATI managed to land for the eHW card.....sounds like a
> good,
> > > > > competent group to associate the ATI name with.
> > > > >
> > > > > Nonetheless, I will continue to steer people away from ATI with
> > respect
> > > to
> > > > > MCE as the opportunity arises until you folks change your
practices,
> > > > support
> > > > > users who spent a bundle for your products, and be honest for a
> change
> > > > about
> > > > > the topic and supporting facts.
> > > > >
> > > > > I even get flattering emails from people claiming to be ATI
> employees
> > > (and
> > > > > the originating IP Addresses suggest they may really be) who agree
> > > > > wholeheartedly that you folks made a bad decision and stuck with
it
> > for
> > > > all
> > > > > the wrong reasons. They hate seeing their company get a bad rap
for
> > > > > something so easily fixed, but realize that if internal
common-sense
> > > won't
> > > > > solve the problem, perhaps external bad PR will.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Q&A your folks authored for TheGreenButton.com was so
incredibly
> > > > > condescending and disrespectful that it probably did more to sour
> > people
> > > > on
> > > > > ATI than anything I could say.
> > > > >
> > > > > Any other big OEM sales with those eHWs?
> > > > > Seriously, I'm glad you are selling some, but you'd take away the
> > > > > "grey-market" smell if you'd support customers with drivers on the
> > > website
> > > > > and maybe even a little discussion of the card from a technical
> > > > perspective
> > > > > rather than just the marketing fluff.
> > > > >
> > > > > MCE etc. isn't going away, and if you guys would pull your heads
> out,
> > it
> > > > > would only take a few genuine, helpful, positive gestures to the
MCE
> > > > > enthusiast community to start mending your reputation and earn
back
> > some
> > > > of
> > > > > the trust (and revenue) that has been needlessly squandered.
> > > > >
> > > > > Phil, there's too much stuff changing in the market. Too many
> > competing
> > > > > technologies and emergent choices. You guys need to offer
consumers
> a
> > > > better
> > > > > roadmap because too many of ATIs efforts seem to be reinventing
the
> > > wheel
> > > > > and moving away from the mainstream.
> > > > >
> > > > > We know you have good hardware. No argument. But the rest of your
> > > > > cometitors, even those with headquarters 8000 miles away in Asia,
> > > instead
> > > > of
> > > > > right next door, are kicking your *** with new products,
> tantalizing
> > > > > information, and damn good, highly responsive customer support.
> > > > >
> > > > > For instance, your new HDTV Wonder... you didn't do anything to
> > > > > differentiate it from the other HDTV cards that have been on the
> > market
> > > > for
> > > > > 2 years already. If it has an advantage, perhaps somebody ought to
> say
> > > so.
> > > > > What have we been waiting two more years for? OTA HDTV?
> > > > >
> > > > > And while you guys sure like to keep secrets, there must be some
> > "good"
> > > > > things about upcoming products you could tell us to create enough
> > > > excitement
> > > > > for us to wait for ATI rather than go buy competing products.
> > > > > Speaking of ATI secrets, you gotta do something to offset the
> > > ExtremeTech
> > > > > report that says the HDTVWonder app is not yet integrated into MMC
> and
> > > > there
> > > > > is no working dual-mode Guide yet....boy THAT was good
press....get
> a
> > > $250
> > > > > HDTV card and have drivers that suck...how'd you manage to let
that
> > > tidbit
> > > > > out?
> > > > >
> > > > > I guess the bottom line is that one pissed off customer has more
> > effect
> > > > than
> > > > > 100 satisfied customers, huh?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Philip Taylor [ATI]" <ptaylor@online.newsgroup-poster.ati.com>
> wrote
> > in
> > > > > message news:OqUKHnL$DHA.2316@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> > > > > > Its hard to see there is any direct linkage between failures on
> disk
> > > and
> > > > > the
> > > > > > capture card.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think its a bit unfair to use this post to forward your agenda
> > Tom.
> > > > Its
> > > > > > unfortunate that your unhappiness over the AIW driver situation
is
> > > > > clouding
> > > > > > your opinion of ATI, but be clear about thats whats driving your
> > > > repeated
> > > > > > comments here and in other forums.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Tom" <tintruder@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:eyGchXI$DHA.3500@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> > > > > > > Interestingly, ZT Group is one of the OEMs who has chosen to
use
> > the
> > > > ATI
> > > > > > > eHomeWonder tuner.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Everybody else uses Avermedia, Emuzed or Hauppague (except
that
> > one
> > > > Dell
> > > > > > > using the customized AIW9000 and secret software).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "ztgroupsucks" <junkmail1513@mail.NOSPAM.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:%235ZHpGI$DHA.1212@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> > > > > > > > I helped my brother configure and purchase a MCE computer
> > through
> > > ZT
> > > > > > > > Group. I figured they use name brand parts and simply
assemble
> > the
> > > > > > > > computer so I had little concerns. WELL what a mistake that
> > was!!!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Besides several little problems that they could not resolve
> the
> > > > system
> > > > > > > > died one day. It was reporting a READ DISK ERROR on boot. OK
> > > sounds
> > > > > > > > like a Hard Drive failure, should not be a problem because
> this
> > > > > > > > system was configured with a MIRROR RAID (2x80GB drive
> > Mirrored).
> > > > > > > > Well I was wrong again.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > To make a very long story short we sent the computer back to
> be
> > > > fixed.
> > > > > > > > They could not retrieve ANY data from either hard drive
> > (remember
> > > > > > > > these were mirrored) and further more could not determine
what
> > > > caused
> > > > > > > > the problem. The technician kept telling me that "computers
> are
> > > not
> > > > > > > > perfect" and a RAID MIRROR is not a guarantee of data
> > redundancy.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > After waiting almost a full week after it arrived at ZT
Group
> > they
> > > > > > > > could not tell me what went wrong and kept stating
"computers
> > are
> > > > not
> > > > > > > > perfect". They refused to refund my brothers money and would
> not
> > > > > > > > replace any hardware cause they could not find a problem.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Furthermore at least 5+ hours of our time was wasted trying
to
> > > > > > > > troubleshoot the system over the phone. The tech support
perso
> n
> > > > > > > > simply had no clue.. He tried to tell me that the data on
one
> > hard
> > > > > > > > drive became corrupt and therefore "when mirrored" to the
> other
> > > disk
> > > > > > > > other disk was too corrupt. I explained that MIRRORED drives
> do
> > > not
> > > > > > > > copy from one disk to the other but the RAID controller
simply
> > > > > > > > duplicates the data and sends it to each disk therefore each
> > disk
> > > is
> > > > > > > > independent of the others failure.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I WOULD NEVER EVER DO BUSINESS AGAIN WITH ZT GROUP!!!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > MCE User..
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Posted via http://www.xpMCE.com
> > > > > > > > Everything about Windows XP Media Center Edition
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>