Re: OE and Hotmail
From: N. Miller (anonymous_at_discussions.microsoft.com)
Date: 10/01/04
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Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 21:38:40 -0700
In article <#Y3iltvpEHA.2184@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl>, David Kelsey says...
> I didn't mean Hotmail would only work with OE, just that it is a pain used
> alone. Obviously, if all transactions have to be done via the internet,
> they will be slower than if done on your own machine once downloaded, which
> is automatic anyway.
It takes the same amount of time to move a kilobyte of data, whether it is
moved by POP3, or HTTP. HTTPMail uses HTTP. All email transactions, whether
POP3, or HTTP, are done via the Internet. The only difference between
POP3/HTTPMail access and straight HTTP (Web) access is that you get all of
the messages in one shot, and, once stored locally, you can read them at
your leisure. But, message for message, any one email takes an equal amount
of time to get from the server to your computer; for your given connection.
> The basic Hotmail service will continue to be free; it is just the OE
> connection has been stopped.
Nor did I say otherwise.
> Why would a spammer pay for a Hotmail Premium
> account if OE is disconnected, any more than he will now?
He won't. He never did pay. But the spammer did develop tools to abuse the
WebDAV process for sending email from the client to the spam victims. The
spammer developed automated scripts to create an array of Hotmail accounts,
to use each Hotmail account to the max (100 messages per day), and MSN staff
was hard pressed to keep them at bay. By limiting WebDAV access only to
paying customers, these spam tools are just as cut off from WebDAV access as
the rest of us.
The spam tools would probably still work if the spammer were willing to pay
for the Hotmail account, but it is a long shot that he could send enough
spam through a paid Hotmail account to make up the cost, and then some,
before he was "TOSsed".
> MS claim 'only' 10 to 15% of Hotmail's 100 million users actually have a
> connection with OE, and of these, they claim most don't use it more than
> once.
I have no reason to doubt that. Almost everybody I know who has a Hotmail
account, or even a MSN Internet Access account, uses their browser to send
me email.
> They don't say how they know this.
Probably the same way that I know this. From an email message sent through
Hotmail, composed in MS Outlook Express:
> Received: from 64.161.30.246 by bay22-dav15.bay22.hotmail.com with DAV;
> Fri, 01 Oct 2004 04:17:17 +0000
>From an email message composed in Firefox while on the MSN Hotmail site:
> Received: from 64.161.30.246 by by22fd.bay22.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP;
> Fri, 01 Oct 2004 04:15:21 GMT
Email sent using MSOE has "with DAV", email sent through browser has "with
HTTP". Kind of hard to miss that difference.
> So 85 to 90% of Hotmail users will continue exactly as
> before - that's a sure way to get rid of spammers, then, isn't it?
Actually, yes. Since the free access users won't be able to abuse the WebDAV
access to send email, that should cut down on the amount of spam carrying
the "with DAV" headers. All the spam sent through Hotmail servers that I
ever got had "with DAV"; none had "with HTTP".
> I really do not understand MS's thinking on this.
You aren't really trying too hard...
> On the one hand, they say it is to prevent spam...
Which it will...
> ...but nothing is changing for 90% of Hotmail users.
Nor should it.
> Maybe they want more money, as if they needed it, but they aren't going to
> get it, are they? Or at least they are only going to get a proportion of
> the 10 to 15% of users to cough up. I don't understand how MS can at a
> moments' notice stop people using OE with Hotmail.
There was no contract with MSN to continue to provide that service in
perpetuity. If there is, and you signed it, take it to court.
> Without even giving them a couple of days to make new mail arrangements or
> copy their folders etc. out of Hotmail, let alone notify all their contacts
> about a change of address. Can they have gone collectively barmy?
It took me all of five minutes per account, on accounts that are
grandfathered in for access through March, or April of 2005, to move and
clear my email. At this time, two of three accounts have been completely
removed from MSOE. The third will remain for come limited use and testing.
> All this seems to be tied up with the problems of webDAV and its
> vulnerability. So why not use pop, like everyone else? No-one is forcing
> MS to use http.
Yep. And, if you haven't noticed, nobody else is offering free POP3 access
any more, either. Juno has announced that they will end free access to their
POP3 servers by Dec. 1, 2004. There proprietary mail client will also cease
to work for free access on that date.
Eudoramail no longer offers free POP3 access to their accounts, and only
grandfather those accounts which have it if they access at least once in
every thirty days.
Yahoo! discontinued free SMTP/POP3 access around April, 2002. USA.com,
USA.net, and others that once had free POP3 access ended free access even
before Yahoo! did. I have watched the free POP3 access services dropping
like flies since 1999. All have moved to fee based POP3 access, as a premium
service, or discontinued it.
> I think they have lost the plot.
They were among the last holdouts for a dying product; free client access
email. All that remains appears to be AOL/CS2K/Netscape Webmail. I wonder
how long they will last?
-- Norman ~Win dain a lotica, En vai tu ri, Si lo ta ~Fin dein a loluca, En dragu a sei lain ~Vi fa-ru les shutai am, En riga-lint
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