Re: Problem Updating New Messages from NTTP News Server OE

From: Robert Aldwinckle (robald_at_techemail.com)
Date: 07/08/04 

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 09:44:58 -0400

"Chad Harris" <ddram32_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:egNu5aGZEHA.3304@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl
...
> He made the post on 6/30 and titled it "embedded pictures."
> Time passed until yesterday (6/7) and he sent me multiple screenshots
> that he was able to update new posts in the group up through 6/7
> (yet an answer to his question posted on 7/1 wasn't showing up.

I'll assume then that this is the message in question and continue
the discussion based on its headers.

< http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Og6zLjtXEHA.2944%40TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl&output=gplain >

This shows that the poster was using OE and was connected to msnews.
So I would be less inclined to blame the server and more inclined to blame
user technique. That's just because normally msnews is a reliable server
and frequently other servers, especially when dealing with microsoft.public
newsgroups, are not.

The simplest way to lose messages in OE is to use the Watched Conversation
feature anywhere within a newsgroup and synchronize that newsgroup with
either the Synchronize Newsgroup or the Synchronize Account command.
Both cause messages from Watched threads to be given preference and
if any messages from Watched threads are found they change the meaning
of "New Messages". Hence any messages which were really "New Messages"
but which arrived before the last header downloaded from those being chosen
with the Watched thread preference may be ignored. Fortunately this "feechur"
is not used when the command is Synchronize All, so that is what I almost always
use unless I know that the newsgroup or account I am synchronizing does not
contain any watched threads.

The subject message is unthreaded. (There is no Reference: header in it.)
Therefore it would not be found in a Watched set and could have been ignored
(depending on when it arrived and whether some later messages were downloaded
at the same time that it would have been downloaded if this "feechur" had not been
in effect.)

One way to see the sequence number is to extract the Message-ID from any source,
(such as the Google Groups Original Format page), generate a news: link from it,
use that to download the complete message and then extract the Xref: header,
which in this case is:

Xref: TK2MSFTNGP08.phx.gbl microsoft.public.outlook:474349

Once a message's sequence number has been skipped there are only two ways
that I know of to try to recover them and insert its header in a newsgroup's message list:
the Reset command (which Steve gave you) or the Get Next ___ Headers command
(or equivalently pressing on the Toolbar's Headers button.) Unfortunately, though
we can retrieve a complete message using the Message-ID, as I indicated above,
that message does not get integrated into the subscribed newsgroup's message list.

If you choose to try to recover the headers using the Headers button
it will depend on what the current high sequence number is, how far back
you need to go to get to the missing message and the number used
in the Get Next ___ Headers setting. I can't remember if I have actually
traced the case which Steve favors of unchecking the Get Next ___ Headers
option in this situation. Presumably one press of the Headers button
would retrieve all missing headers which were available. That seems iffy
to me especially if the range involved is large (such as it appears it may be here)
and if there are multiple holes which need to be filled in. E.g. I doubt if it
would just issue a huge XOVER if it knew that it had most of the messages
in that range and I'm slightly dubious about it generating all the specific
XOVER which would be necessary to fill all the holes in one fell swoop.

I think the main reason one would want to uncheck that option would be
when one thinks that the number of messages available (and wanted)
would exceed one application of Get Next ___ Headers or when the range
involved exceeded that number (i.e. the command doesn't really get
exactly that number of headers so much as step back through the sequence
numbers by that amount; you would only notice a difference if there are
holes in the sequence, e.g. due to cancellations).

If you are using a synchronize command to download headers the only
concern you need to have about the Get Next ___ Headers setting
is if you enter the newsgroup while you are online because an automatic
Get Next ___ Headers is always done for you. (That might not be what
you would want to have happen after doing a Reset.) It definitely would
not be what you would want to have happen if your intention was to use
a synchronize command with the New Messages Only method because
the automatic Get Next ___ Headers will have redefined what is a new
message. Synchronizing with the All Messages method instead could
fill in the headers that that accidentally generated but it will also attempt
to download any undownloaded headers unless you have previously
indicated that you don't want them using the Catch-Up command.
Otherwise all synchronize commands ignore the Get Next setting
and download all appropriate headers and bodies.

A lot of this stuff is not going to be very understandable unless you
do some tracing and begin to see how OE's UI correlates with the
NNTP requests it generates. You will see the range of sequence
numbers I'm talking about in the 211 reply to Group request, and on
XOVER and XHDR requests. It is also useful to simulate OE's session
using a telnet client in order to see some of the actual data that the
server sends in response. E.g. you will see that XOVER returns
a digest of the some of the headers and that is what OE's headers
consist of before its ARTICLE requests fill in their bodies.
Unfortunately OE doesn't let us inspect the headers easily when the
body is not also present. (You can't use Alt-Enter on a bare header
in the message list but you can force it open and use Alt-Enter on the
resulting error message.) Worse, OE won't let us see the sequence
number associated with that header. Unfortunately the digest doesn't
contain the Xref: header or that would be a simple solution to that problem.

Finally, if you see XHDR requests you will know that that preferred download
for Watched threads is in effect and there is the possibility that unwatched
messages are being lost. In fact by examining the ranges involved with
both the XHDR and the subsequence XOVER requests you will be
able to determine exactly which messages are being lost. Then even though
you don't know the Message-IDs involved you could if you liked download
the messages (again, not integratable in the cache) using the little known
nntp:// URL. Its otherwise useless syntax would be ideal for this one
specific application. The technical term for what I have been calling
sequence number is article number. So imagine that instead of getting
that Xref: header by the method that I used that it had been inferred
from a change of range between an XHDR and an XOVER in a trace.
(We'll ignore why you might happen to have such a trace running. <g>)
Here is the URL you would generate:
    nntp://msnews.microsoft.com/microsoft.public.outlook/474349

Rats! I just remembered; OE doesn't support this correct syntax;
it supports a similar but incorrect syntax where the article number
parameter is replaced by the Message-ID, which in our case would be
an unknown.

Actually there is another less reliable but otherwise more available way
to infer holes in the sequence if you have complete messages.
You can set Group Messages by Conversation off and sort by Sent
(Alt-V,B,s,s) as an approximation to sorting by sequence number.
(It's an approximation because not everybody's timestamps are
accurate.) In any case the idea would be to use Alt-Enter on a set
of messages to examine their Xref: headers and test if they formed
a complete sequence. If one was missing that might be an indication
that it wasn't in the cache; though as I have indicated it might also be
an indication that it was simply missorted due to a bad timestamp.

Oops! I have been so obsessed giving you a possible explanation
for having a missing message that I have neglected to consider the
other aspect of your symptom, that apparently no new messages
were being received until a Reset was done. That's another problem,
caused by a defect in the server when cross-posted messages are
involved and OE's inability to recover from the effects of that error.

Here is a link where I described that problem a while ago:

< http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Op2vhzrGCHA.1604%40tkmsftngp12 >

(Google Groups search for
    "cross-post" "sequence numbers" author:aldwinckle group:microsoft.*.ie6_outlookexpress
)

Oh well, I think the rest of my explanation should have covered most
of your specific questions.

HTH

Robert 

---
"Chad Harris" <ddram32_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:egNu5aGZEHA.3304@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Robert--
"Care to elaborate?"  The suggestion of resetting fixed this for my  budddy, and so far so good,  but I have questions.
I appreciate your help very much and that of Steve.  I'd be  glad to  elaborate.   Knowing you have previous posts I could hit with 
Google groups is an additional good resource.  I spend a good bit of time helping in spates more on the XP/Office ngs (here and 
forums on the web), and I don't want to ask for help without providing clear statements or frustrate someone trying to help who has 
the expertise to deliver it.
First of all it's was not my first hand problem.  I posted this for my buddy who just recently configured his OE to be an NTTP 
client at my urging because I wanted him to be able to tap the excellent help in these groups.  I did the posting because he wasn't 
sure he could see the answers at the time--that's what we wanted to fix so he could use the groups and make sure he got the message 
and header updates.
 His specific problem went this way--and feel free to jump on me if I don't explain it well or completely.  He posted in the Outlook 
group because he was having a problem with embedding some images after I encouraged him to--this is the plain Outlook as opposed to 
the Outlook general because  I'm not smart enough to distinguish the nuance,  if any, between subject matter aimed at one of these 
versus the other--it seems to be the same stuff.
He made the post on 6/30 and titled it "embedded pictures."  Time passed until yesterday (6/7) and he sent me multiple screenshots 
that he was able to update new posts in the group up through 6/7 (yet an answer to his question posted on 7/1 wasn't showing up.  I 
kept urging him that the key to getting this was to make the move Tools>Syncronize Newsgroup>Check Get the Following Items(New 
Messages Only)>and watch the progress bar update him.  He kept firing back that he was doing that repeatedly.  Then I wondered about 
the Options>Read>Get x# headers at a time.   I looked on some of the OE MVP sites, including Tom Koch's extensive Tomsterdam,  and 
hit MSKBs and OE help first, and I didn't see much  I reasoned to things and asked for help with this.
I knew what putting the question mark from the dialogue box would tell me--that basically you are designating the number of headers 
that download.  I have a check in mine with 300 and have been using the OE newsreader for 2-3 years that way.  When I want to 
download new posts--questions or answers, I have no problem getting it done via Tools>Syncronize>Get New Messages Only.  I wondered 
if because he didn't have it checked he was somehow getting some messages but selectively (and I don't know why) omitting the answer 
to his thread.
Then he read Steve Cochran's first answer up above and followed Steve's suggestion to take the check out of the box Get x# of 
headers and to reset at properties and he has been able to read messages since.  I was certain that Steve's reset suggestion had 
fixed him but not completely sure he may have also gottyen help from downloading all the headers.  I interpret downloading so many 
headers to mean you'll get all the new ones eventually, but it can take quite a while to keep that check out of the box.  I thought 
specifically that it was Tools>Syncronize>Get new messages only that gets you the new headers and I have a couple questions.
a.. 1) Could the check out of that box on the Read tab have had anything to do with this?   The answer would seem to be a loud "no," 
and  I paid attention to your clear explanation on your previous post that
  a..       "No.  That first option is mostly for servicing the Inbox.  It wasn't really
  intended for updating news and won't work for news anyway unless
  you check  "Include this account when checking for new messages"
  (in Accounts, Properties, General tab).   The other methods all rely
  on manual intervention e.g. entering the news group, pressing F5, etc.
  and I think that they are preferable."
a.. 2) Isn't it true that the Get new messages only steps from Tools>Syncronize grab your new messages?
b.. 3) What does Syncronize all do?  Make sure every group's headers are all downloaded and all email is delivered?
What's the precise difference between Tools>Syncronize Newsgroup  Get a) all messages b) new messages   c) headers only
4) Is it correct that if a header is downloaded, that the body of them message stays on the server until you click it open, or does 
it work some other way?--because obviously "downloading headers" is a distinction from downloading something else--possibly message 
bodies since the term is used when you go to the folders list and click a group>properties>local file tab.
a.. 5) "If you have a Message-ID  (e.g., from a References:
header) which is missing, first check to see if the server now has it by
constructing a  news:  link from it in an IE Address bar and press Enter.
If the message is downloaded check its  Xref:  header to see what
sequence number was given.   If that is out of range of anything else
you have you will know that the archive has probably been reordered
and a Reset will be required."   I'm not sure where this is or where you get it.
            Do you mind telling me how to do this??
Your tip on the diagnostics is a good one.  I wasn't aware that they were available and I did find Tools>Options>Maint. Tab>Logging 
and realize the log files would be named by server type.log and could be searched by pop3.log or *.log.
Thanks,
Chad Harris
______________________________________________________________________________________
"Robert Aldwinckle" <robald@techemail.com> wrote in message news:O8KDthEZEHA.2260@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> couldn't get a particular thread's updates--and that inconsistency
>> I can't explain.
>
> Care to elaborate?   Did you try using any of the diagnostics I suggested?
> Here's another way to probe differences between the OE cache and the
> server's archive.   If you have a Message-ID  (e.g., from a References:
> header) which is missing, first check to see if the server now has it by
> constructing a  news:  link from it in an IE Address bar and press Enter.
> If the message is downloaded check its  Xref:  header to see what
> sequence number was given.   If that is out of range of anything else
> you have you will know that the archive has probably been reordered
> and a Reset will be required.   Etc.   (It's almost pointless trying to give
> a tutorial on diagnosing problems between the cache and a server's
> archive without having some specific examples to work with.  Consider
> these hints to aid your own exploration of the subject.  You could also
> use Google Groups to research some of my previous posts where
> you can find more detailed explanations.)
>
>
>> Particular server--His ISP is RoadRunner (Time Warner)of NE Ohio
>> as far as I know and he doesn't have a server in his setup.
>> http://about.neo.rr.com/serviceareas.html
>
> That could explain why he needs to use Reset.
> If he seems to need to use Reset very often he might be better off
> with a different newsreader which isn't so dependent on having the
> server maintain the same sequence numbers.   Other newsreaders
> could use the sequence numbers only for the initial download of the
> headers and thereafter use the Message-IDs independently of the
> original sequence numbers they were downloaded by.   This would
> allow the news server operator to maintain the newsgroup caches
> without having to worry about which slot the messages ended up in.
>
>
>> The monitoring-- is an interesting concept--I know MSFT watches the
>> groups with varying degrees to help answer questions and get
>> suggestions and that their overall working is coordinated but I didn't
>> know they were being vetted or anything like that to the extent it would
>> impact posting.
>
> I assume this reference to monitoring is still within my first paragraph?
>
> Microsoft newsgroups are not monitored in that technical sense,
> at least not on Microsoft's servers.    Other newsgroups on other servers
> are monitored such that there is not any direct posting to an archive.
> However, the same slowing effect occurs anyway if there are multiple servers
> being used to represent one host, particularly when the server operator
> wants them all to appear identical.   In that case there would be a delay
> between receipt of the message on one server and the synchronization
> of the rest of the servers for the placement of that message.  Depending
> on how busy all the servers in the cluster were it could take some time
> to do that.   Also different configurations could have different performance
> attributes.   For example, it might be simpler to have one server as a master
> and the rest as slaves for controlling updates but that could be a potential
> bottleneck which would occasionally make things even slower.
>
>
>> Troubleshootooting logging or telnet--I'm not sure I know how to do either
>
> See if you can glean an answer from some of my previous posts
>
> <
> http://groups.google.com/groups?num=20&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=%22troubleshooting+logging%22+211+author%3Aaldwinckle+group%3Amicrosoft.*.ie6_outlookexpress&btnG=Search >
>
> (Google Groups search for
>    "troubleshooting logging" 211 author:aldwinckle group:microsoft.*.ie6_outlookexpress
> )
>
>
> <
> http://groups.google.com/groups?num=20&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=telnet+119+author%3Aaldwinckle+group%3Amicrosoft.*.ie6_outlookexpress&btnG=Search >
>
> (Google Groups search for
>    telnet 119 author:aldwinckle group:microsoft.*.ie6_outlookexpress
> )
>
>
>> This post I just made in answer to Steve is my attempt to clear up my confusion
>
> I think I'll wait to see what Steve has to say.  <EG>
> However, I can point out that I do have different opinions about
> some of the settings particularly for dial-up users who want to work
> offline mostly.   If you like you could try doing some more more
> Google Groups searches on your own to find those.
>
>
> HTH
>
> Robert
> ---
>
>
> "Chad Harris" <ddram32_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:uAbWmK5YEHA.1652@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> Robert--
>
> I don't know if it was the resetting--see my followup question to make sure I understand what these less than intuitive (for me)
> General and Mail tab items mean) but Steve's suggestion fixed his ability to see all the new messages.  He was getting new posts,
> but couldn't get a particular thread's updates--and that inconsistency I can't explain.
>
> Particular server--His ISP is RoadRunner (Time Warner)of NE Ohio as far as I know and he doesn't have a server in his setup.
> http://about.neo.rr.com/serviceareas.html
>
> How soon after--minutes to days--didn't make a different.
>
> His concern--He was very alert to the time window, but he couldn't see any answers to a post which was his first on these
> newsgroups.  I wanted to make sure he was able to update all messages so he would have use of the OE NTTP reader with the MSFT
> public groups.
>
> The monitoring-- is an interesting concept--I know MSFT watches the groups with varying degrees to help answer questions and get
> suggestions and that their overall working is coordinated but I didn't know they were being vetted or anything like that to the
> extent it would impact posting.  Mine usually show up within "about" a 2-3 minute time period.  But his problem was that he 
> couldn't
> download the answer to a problem he had posted in the Outlook group and I had seen the answer almost immediately on July 1.  Until
> he followed Steve's suggestion a little while ago on July 6, he wasn't seeing that answer.  Maybe the resetting did it.  I'm not
> sure how taking the check out of the download headers boxes would have helped.
>
> On line state--good point.  I don't work offline but there may be niches for that I don't appreciate--limlted bandwidth or limited
> time online.  This is something I should appreciate better but don't--other reasons for working off line.
>
> I appreciate your clarification on the Inbox for the first method I mentioned but don't understand then what the Automatically
> Download Messages in Preview pane does if it doesn't download new headers.  Also I'm probably confusing headers with messages.  Do
> the posts not download from the server until you click on the header?
>
> Troubleshootooting logging or telnet--I'm not sure I know how to do either--sounds helpful in situations like this.  This post I
> just made in answer to Steve is my attempt to clear up my confusion on what these boxes mean on the General and Read tabs:
> Maybe I also need to change my thinking about how I download new messages, but it seems to be working--  I seem to be able to 
> update
> fine.
>
> I get upated (new posts) and new answers by two means as far as I can tell.  If I go out of this group and shut down OE or come 
> back
> into this group, then I get all the latest posts--I don't think that headers setting figures in here (but maybe it does).  If I'm 
> in
> the group and have been reading posts for a while, I'll hit  (on the main OE toolbar)Tools>Syncronize Newsgroup>Get the Following
> Items>newsmessages only and the progress bar runs.
>
> On the General Tab I have cks. in: 1) Automatically Display Folders of Unread Messages 2) Send and Receive Messages at Startup
> 3) Check for new messages every  (5) minutes  4) If my computer is not connected at this time connect only when not working off 
> line
> (isn't that a double negative?)
>
> On the Read Tab I have chks. in 1) Automatically expand grouped messages 2) Automatically download message when viewing in preview
> pane 3) Get (300) headers at a time  4) No check in mark all messages as read when exiting newsgroup
>
> Would you modify this?--I know you said to get the check out of the Get X # of headers at a time box.  I'm not sure what these 
> boxes
> mean and I'm not sure why you said that.
>
>              General Tab:
>  Automatically display folders of unread messages--gives you maximum chance to see all the messages???
>  Send and receive messages at startup--refers to mail and not newsgroup messages???
>  Check for new messages every 5 minutes--refers to mail and not newsgroup messages???
>  Connect only when not working off line--have no idea what they mean by this and if it impacts ng messages
>           Read Tab:
>            Mark messages read after displaying for (5) seconds--not sure of this
>
>            Automatically download messages when viewing in the Preview Pane--I thought this meant
>            that when you go into a group for the first time after opening OE or from another group that
>            all new messages would download
>
>           Get 300 headers at a time--why do you want this unchecked and what does  it mean--doesn't it help
>           you download the headers (and messages)?
>
>            Mark all messages as read when exiting a newsgroup--not sure of this
>
>            Thanks much,
>
>             Chad Harris
> __________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> "Robert Aldwinckle" <robald@techemail.com> wrote in message news:OovMSz3YEHA.1448@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>>> he just can't update messages after his post.
>>
>> Is this happening on a particular server?  How soon after his post
>> is he trying?  If he is just concerned about not being able to see his post
>> quickly after sending it make him aware that it takes time for a message
>> to be received and archived especially if the newsgroup is monitored.
>> If the newsgroup is one which isn't updated frequently it could be that
>> his is the only post which would be contained in the next update and
>> therefore he wouldn't see any change until it was ready to be sent.
>>
>>
>>> 2) A second way is to close out of the newsgroup, and when you go
>>> back to the group you'll be updated.
>>
>> Yes.  Provided you open it while you are in a Working Online state.
>>
>>
>>> This is controlled I thought by Tools>Options>General Tab>Check for
>>> messages every (5) minutes and Tools Options>Read tab>
>>> Automatically Download Messages in Preview pane.
>>
>> No.  That first option is mostly for servicing the Inbox.  It wasn't really
>> intended for updating news and won't work for news anyway unless
>> you check  "Include this account when checking for new messages"
>> (in Accounts, Properties, General tab).   The other methods all rely
>> on manual intervention e.g. entering the news group, pressing F5, etc.
>> and I think that they are preferable.
>>
>> The second option has nothing to do with getting new headers which
>> is what you are concerned with.
>>
>>
>> You might want to get him to activate troubleshooting logging
>> (or use telnet to monitor the newsgroup's status.)
>> If there is no change in the server's  211 reply to Group request
>> you would have an explanation for him which would be independent
>> of him using OE.
>>
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> Robert Aldwinckle
>> ---
>>
>>
>> "Chad Harris" <ddram32_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:%236ORUvvYEHA.4004@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>> My friend cannot update new  newsgroup messages.     He's using OE6 and has updated all its patches/security updates with Windows
>> XP
>> SP1.  My understanding is that there would be 4 ways to do this, and he is deploying all all 4 from the OE toolbar.   If I'm
>> missing
>> any, or misconstruing them, that's why I'm here.  I've been all over OE help and the OE MVP sites.  I think OE help could be a 
>> lot
>> better.  I didn't see anything in the MSKBs that will remedy this, and considered his ISP, but he can access and post to the
>> newsgroups--he just can't update messages after his post.
>>
>> 1) The way I use to update messages is Tools>Syncronize Newsgroup>Get the following items>New Messages only.
>> 2) A second way is to close out of the newsgroup, and when you go back to the group you'll be updated.  This is controlled I
>> thought
>> by Tools>Options>General Tab>Check for messages every (5) minutes and Tools Options>Read tab>
>> Automatically Download Messages in Preview pane.
>> 3) A third way would be to close out of OE and fire it up again for the same reason as above.
>> 4) A fourth way would be to syncronize all groups at Tools>Get New Messages.
>>
>> I'm not sure if Syncronizing all would impact this.
>>
>> Thanks for any help in straightening this out.
>>
>>
>> Chad Harris
>>
>>
>>
>
>