Re: Problem Updating New Messages from NTTP News Server OE

From: Chad Harris (ddram32_nospam_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 07/07/04 

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 17:09:48 -0400

Robert--

"Care to elaborate?" The suggestion of resetting fixed this for my budddy, and so far so good, but I have questions.

I appreciate your help very much and that of Steve. I'd be glad to elaborate. Knowing you have previous posts I could hit with Google groups is an additional good resource. I spend a good bit of time helping in spates more on the XP/Office ngs (here and forums on the web), and I don't want to ask for help without providing clear statements or frustrate someone trying to help who has the expertise to deliver it.

First of all it's was not my first hand problem. I posted this for my buddy who just recently configured his OE to be an NTTP client at my urging because I wanted him to be able to tap the excellent help in these groups. I did the posting because he wasn't sure he could see the answers at the time--that's what we wanted to fix so he could use the groups and make sure he got the message and header updates.

 His specific problem went this way--and feel free to jump on me if I don't explain it well or completely. He posted in the Outlook group because he was having a problem with embedding some images after I encouraged him to--this is the plain Outlook as opposed to the Outlook general because I'm not smart enough to distinguish the nuance, if any, between subject matter aimed at one of these versus the other--it seems to be the same stuff.

He made the post on 6/30 and titled it "embedded pictures." Time passed until yesterday (6/7) and he sent me multiple screenshots that he was able to update new posts in the group up through 6/7 (yet an answer to his question posted on 7/1 wasn't showing up. I kept urging him that the key to getting this was to make the move Tools>Syncronize Newsgroup>Check Get the Following Items(New Messages Only)>and watch the progress bar update him. He kept firing back that he was doing that repeatedly. Then I wondered about the Options>Read>Get x# headers at a time. I looked on some of the OE MVP sites, including Tom Koch's extensive Tomsterdam, and hit MSKBs and OE help first, and I didn't see much I reasoned to things and asked for help with this.

I knew what putting the question mark from the dialogue box would tell me--that basically you are designating the number of headers that download. I have a check in mine with 300 and have been using the OE newsreader for 2-3 years that way. When I want to download new posts--questions or answers, I have no problem getting it done via Tools>Syncronize>Get New Messages Only. I wondered if because he didn't have it checked he was somehow getting some messages but selectively (and I don't know why) omitting the answer to his thread.

Then he read Steve Cochran's first answer up above and followed Steve's suggestion to take the check out of the box Get x# of headers and to reset at properties and he has been able to read messages since. I was certain that Steve's reset suggestion had fixed him but not completely sure he may have also gottyen help from downloading all the headers. I interpret downloading so many headers to mean you'll get all the new ones eventually, but it can take quite a while to keep that check out of the box. I thought specifically that it was Tools>Syncronize>Get new messages only that gets you the new headers and I have a couple questions.

a.. 1) Could the check out of that box on the Read tab have had anything to do with this? The answer would seem to be a loud "no," and I paid attention to your clear explanation on your previous post that
  a.. "No. That first option is mostly for servicing the Inbox. It wasn't really
  intended for updating news and won't work for news anyway unless
  you check "Include this account when checking for new messages"
  (in Accounts, Properties, General tab). The other methods all rely
  on manual intervention e.g. entering the news group, pressing F5, etc.
  and I think that they are preferable."

a.. 2) Isn't it true that the Get new messages only steps from Tools>Syncronize grab your new messages?
b.. 3) What does Syncronize all do? Make sure every group's headers are all downloaded and all email is delivered?
What's the precise difference between Tools>Syncronize Newsgroup Get a) all messages b) new messages c) headers only
4) Is it correct that if a header is downloaded, that the body of them message stays on the server until you click it open, or does it work some other way?--because obviously "downloading headers" is a distinction from downloading something else--possibly message bodies since the term is used when you go to the folders list and click a group>properties>local file tab.
a.. 5) "If you have a Message-ID (e.g., from a References:
header) which is missing, first check to see if the server now has it by
constructing a news: link from it in an IE Address bar and press Enter.
If the message is downloaded check its Xref: header to see what
sequence number was given. If that is out of range of anything else
you have you will know that the archive has probably been reordered
and a Reset will be required." I'm not sure where this is or where you get it.
            Do you mind telling me how to do this??

Your tip on the diagnostics is a good one. I wasn't aware that they were available and I did find Tools>Options>Maint. Tab>Logging and realize the log files would be named by server type.log and could be searched by pop3.log or *.log.

Thanks,

Chad Harris

______________________________________________________________________________________

"Robert Aldwinckle" <robald@techemail.com> wrote in message news:O8KDthEZEHA.2260@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> couldn't get a particular thread's updates--and that inconsistency
>> I can't explain.
>
> Care to elaborate? Did you try using any of the diagnostics I suggested?
> Here's another way to probe differences between the OE cache and the
> server's archive. If you have a Message-ID (e.g., from a References:
> header) which is missing, first check to see if the server now has it by
> constructing a news: link from it in an IE Address bar and press Enter.
> If the message is downloaded check its Xref: header to see what
> sequence number was given. If that is out of range of anything else
> you have you will know that the archive has probably been reordered
> and a Reset will be required. Etc. (It's almost pointless trying to give
> a tutorial on diagnosing problems between the cache and a server's
> archive without having some specific examples to work with. Consider
> these hints to aid your own exploration of the subject. You could also
> use Google Groups to research some of my previous posts where
> you can find more detailed explanations.)
>
>
>> Particular server--His ISP is RoadRunner (Time Warner)of NE Ohio
>> as far as I know and he doesn't have a server in his setup.
>> http://about.neo.rr.com/serviceareas.html
>
> That could explain why he needs to use Reset.
> If he seems to need to use Reset very often he might be better off
> with a different newsreader which isn't so dependent on having the
> server maintain the same sequence numbers. Other newsreaders
> could use the sequence numbers only for the initial download of the
> headers and thereafter use the Message-IDs independently of the
> original sequence numbers they were downloaded by. This would
> allow the news server operator to maintain the newsgroup caches
> without having to worry about which slot the messages ended up in.
>
>
>> The monitoring-- is an interesting concept--I know MSFT watches the
>> groups with varying degrees to help answer questions and get
>> suggestions and that their overall working is coordinated but I didn't
>> know they were being vetted or anything like that to the extent it would
>> impact posting.
>
> I assume this reference to monitoring is still within my first paragraph?
>
> Microsoft newsgroups are not monitored in that technical sense,
> at least not on Microsoft's servers. Other newsgroups on other servers
> are monitored such that there is not any direct posting to an archive.
> However, the same slowing effect occurs anyway if there are multiple servers
> being used to represent one host, particularly when the server operator
> wants them all to appear identical. In that case there would be a delay
> between receipt of the message on one server and the synchronization
> of the rest of the servers for the placement of that message. Depending
> on how busy all the servers in the cluster were it could take some time
> to do that. Also different configurations could have different performance
> attributes. For example, it might be simpler to have one server as a master
> and the rest as slaves for controlling updates but that could be a potential
> bottleneck which would occasionally make things even slower.
>
>
>> Troubleshootooting logging or telnet--I'm not sure I know how to do either
>
> See if you can glean an answer from some of my previous posts
>
> <
> http://groups.google.com/groups?num=20&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=%22troubleshooting+logging%22+211+author%3Aaldwinckle+group%3Amicrosoft.*.ie6_outlookexpress&btnG=Search >
>
> (Google Groups search for
> "troubleshooting logging" 211 author:aldwinckle group:microsoft.*.ie6_outlookexpress
> )
>
>
> <
> http://groups.google.com/groups?num=20&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=telnet+119+author%3Aaldwinckle+group%3Amicrosoft.*.ie6_outlookexpress&btnG=Search >
>
> (Google Groups search for
> telnet 119 author:aldwinckle group:microsoft.*.ie6_outlookexpress
> )
>
>
>> This post I just made in answer to Steve is my attempt to clear up my confusion
>
> I think I'll wait to see what Steve has to say. <EG>
> However, I can point out that I do have different opinions about
> some of the settings particularly for dial-up users who want to work
> offline mostly. If you like you could try doing some more more
> Google Groups searches on your own to find those.
>
>
> HTH
>
> Robert
> ---
>
>
> "Chad Harris" <ddram32_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:uAbWmK5YEHA.1652@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> Robert--
>
> I don't know if it was the resetting--see my followup question to make sure I understand what these less than intuitive (for me)
> General and Mail tab items mean) but Steve's suggestion fixed his ability to see all the new messages. He was getting new posts,
> but couldn't get a particular thread's updates--and that inconsistency I can't explain.
>
> Particular server--His ISP is RoadRunner (Time Warner)of NE Ohio as far as I know and he doesn't have a server in his setup.
> http://about.neo.rr.com/serviceareas.html
>
> How soon after--minutes to days--didn't make a different.
>
> His concern--He was very alert to the time window, but he couldn't see any answers to a post which was his first on these
> newsgroups. I wanted to make sure he was able to update all messages so he would have use of the OE NTTP reader with the MSFT
> public groups.
>
> The monitoring-- is an interesting concept--I know MSFT watches the groups with varying degrees to help answer questions and get
> suggestions and that their overall working is coordinated but I didn't know they were being vetted or anything like that to the
> extent it would impact posting. Mine usually show up within "about" a 2-3 minute time period. But his problem was that he couldn't
> download the answer to a problem he had posted in the Outlook group and I had seen the answer almost immediately on July 1. Until
> he followed Steve's suggestion a little while ago on July 6, he wasn't seeing that answer. Maybe the resetting did it. I'm not
> sure how taking the check out of the download headers boxes would have helped.
>
> On line state--good point. I don't work offline but there may be niches for that I don't appreciate--limlted bandwidth or limited
> time online. This is something I should appreciate better but don't--other reasons for working off line.
>
> I appreciate your clarification on the Inbox for the first method I mentioned but don't understand then what the Automatically
> Download Messages in Preview pane does if it doesn't download new headers. Also I'm probably confusing headers with messages. Do
> the posts not download from the server until you click on the header?
>
> Troubleshootooting logging or telnet--I'm not sure I know how to do either--sounds helpful in situations like this. This post I
> just made in answer to Steve is my attempt to clear up my confusion on what these boxes mean on the General and Read tabs:
> Maybe I also need to change my thinking about how I download new messages, but it seems to be working-- I seem to be able to update
> fine.
>
> I get upated (new posts) and new answers by two means as far as I can tell. If I go out of this group and shut down OE or come back
> into this group, then I get all the latest posts--I don't think that headers setting figures in here (but maybe it does). If I'm in
> the group and have been reading posts for a while, I'll hit (on the main OE toolbar)Tools>Syncronize Newsgroup>Get the Following
> Items>newsmessages only and the progress bar runs.
>
> On the General Tab I have cks. in: 1) Automatically Display Folders of Unread Messages 2) Send and Receive Messages at Startup
> 3) Check for new messages every (5) minutes 4) If my computer is not connected at this time connect only when not working off line
> (isn't that a double negative?)
>
> On the Read Tab I have chks. in 1) Automatically expand grouped messages 2) Automatically download message when viewing in preview
> pane 3) Get (300) headers at a time 4) No check in mark all messages as read when exiting newsgroup
>
> Would you modify this?--I know you said to get the check out of the Get X # of headers at a time box. I'm not sure what these boxes
> mean and I'm not sure why you said that.
>
> General Tab:
> Automatically display folders of unread messages--gives you maximum chance to see all the messages???
> Send and receive messages at startup--refers to mail and not newsgroup messages???
> Check for new messages every 5 minutes--refers to mail and not newsgroup messages???
> Connect only when not working off line--have no idea what they mean by this and if it impacts ng messages
> Read Tab:
> Mark messages read after displaying for (5) seconds--not sure of this
>
> Automatically download messages when viewing in the Preview Pane--I thought this meant
> that when you go into a group for the first time after opening OE or from another group that
> all new messages would download
>
> Get 300 headers at a time--why do you want this unchecked and what does it mean--doesn't it help
> you download the headers (and messages)?
>
> Mark all messages as read when exiting a newsgroup--not sure of this
>
> Thanks much,
>
> Chad Harris
> __________________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> "Robert Aldwinckle" <robald@techemail.com> wrote in message news:OovMSz3YEHA.1448@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>>> he just can't update messages after his post.
>>
>> Is this happening on a particular server? How soon after his post
>> is he trying? If he is just concerned about not being able to see his post
>> quickly after sending it make him aware that it takes time for a message
>> to be received and archived especially if the newsgroup is monitored.
>> If the newsgroup is one which isn't updated frequently it could be that
>> his is the only post which would be contained in the next update and
>> therefore he wouldn't see any change until it was ready to be sent.
>>
>>
>>> 2) A second way is to close out of the newsgroup, and when you go
>>> back to the group you'll be updated.
>>
>> Yes. Provided you open it while you are in a Working Online state.
>>
>>
>>> This is controlled I thought by Tools>Options>General Tab>Check for
>>> messages every (5) minutes and Tools Options>Read tab>
>>> Automatically Download Messages in Preview pane.
>>
>> No. That first option is mostly for servicing the Inbox. It wasn't really
>> intended for updating news and won't work for news anyway unless
>> you check "Include this account when checking for new messages"
>> (in Accounts, Properties, General tab). The other methods all rely
>> on manual intervention e.g. entering the news group, pressing F5, etc.
>> and I think that they are preferable.
>>
>> The second option has nothing to do with getting new headers which
>> is what you are concerned with.
>>
>>
>> You might want to get him to activate troubleshooting logging
>> (or use telnet to monitor the newsgroup's status.)
>> If there is no change in the server's 211 reply to Group request
>> you would have an explanation for him which would be independent
>> of him using OE.
>>
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> Robert Aldwinckle
>> ---
>>
>>
>> "Chad Harris" <ddram32_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:%236ORUvvYEHA.4004@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>> My friend cannot update new newsgroup messages. He's using OE6 and has updated all its patches/security updates with Windows
>> XP
>> SP1. My understanding is that there would be 4 ways to do this, and he is deploying all all 4 from the OE toolbar. If I'm
>> missing
>> any, or misconstruing them, that's why I'm here. I've been all over OE help and the OE MVP sites. I think OE help could be a lot
>> better. I didn't see anything in the MSKBs that will remedy this, and considered his ISP, but he can access and post to the
>> newsgroups--he just can't update messages after his post.
>>
>> 1) The way I use to update messages is Tools>Syncronize Newsgroup>Get the following items>New Messages only.
>> 2) A second way is to close out of the newsgroup, and when you go back to the group you'll be updated. This is controlled I
>> thought
>> by Tools>Options>General Tab>Check for messages every (5) minutes and Tools Options>Read tab>
>> Automatically Download Messages in Preview pane.
>> 3) A third way would be to close out of OE and fire it up again for the same reason as above.
>> 4) A fourth way would be to syncronize all groups at Tools>Get New Messages.
>>
>> I'm not sure if Syncronizing all would impact this.
>>
>> Thanks for any help in straightening this out.
>>
>>
>> Chad Harris
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Problem Updating New Messages from NTTP News Server OE
    ... > as far as I know and he doesn't have a server in his setup. ... download the answer to a problem he had posted in the Outlook group and I had seen the answer almost immediately on July 1. ... sure how taking the check out of the download headers boxes would have helped. ... pane 3) Get headers at a time 4) No check in mark all messages as read when exiting newsgroup ...
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