Re: Problem Updating New Messages from NTTP News Server OE

From: Robert Aldwinckle (robald_at_techemail.com)
Date: 07/07/04 

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2004 13:32:53 -0400

> couldn't get a particular thread's updates--and that inconsistency
> I can't explain.

Care to elaborate? Did you try using any of the diagnostics I suggested?
Here's another way to probe differences between the OE cache and the
server's archive. If you have a Message-ID (e.g., from a References:
header) which is missing, first check to see if the server now has it by
constructing a news: link from it in an IE Address bar and press Enter.
If the message is downloaded check its Xref: header to see what
sequence number was given. If that is out of range of anything else
you have you will know that the archive has probably been reordered
and a Reset will be required. Etc. (It's almost pointless trying to give
a tutorial on diagnosing problems between the cache and a server's
archive without having some specific examples to work with. Consider
these hints to aid your own exploration of the subject. You could also
use Google Groups to research some of my previous posts where
you can find more detailed explanations.)

> Particular server--His ISP is RoadRunner (Time Warner)of NE Ohio
> as far as I know and he doesn't have a server in his setup.
> http://about.neo.rr.com/serviceareas.html

That could explain why he needs to use Reset.
If he seems to need to use Reset very often he might be better off
with a different newsreader which isn't so dependent on having the
server maintain the same sequence numbers. Other newsreaders
could use the sequence numbers only for the initial download of the
headers and thereafter use the Message-IDs independently of the
original sequence numbers they were downloaded by. This would
allow the news server operator to maintain the newsgroup caches
without having to worry about which slot the messages ended up in.

> The monitoring-- is an interesting concept--I know MSFT watches the
> groups with varying degrees to help answer questions and get
> suggestions and that their overall working is coordinated but I didn't
> know they were being vetted or anything like that to the extent it would
> impact posting.

I assume this reference to monitoring is still within my first paragraph?

Microsoft newsgroups are not monitored in that technical sense,
at least not on Microsoft's servers. Other newsgroups on other servers
are monitored such that there is not any direct posting to an archive.
However, the same slowing effect occurs anyway if there are multiple servers
being used to represent one host, particularly when the server operator
wants them all to appear identical. In that case there would be a delay
between receipt of the message on one server and the synchronization
of the rest of the servers for the placement of that message. Depending
on how busy all the servers in the cluster were it could take some time
to do that. Also different configurations could have different performance
attributes. For example, it might be simpler to have one server as a master
and the rest as slaves for controlling updates but that could be a potential
bottleneck which would occasionally make things even slower.

> Troubleshootooting logging or telnet--I'm not sure I know how to do either

See if you can glean an answer from some of my previous posts

<
http://groups.google.com/groups?num=20&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=%22troubleshooting+logging%22+211+author%3Aaldwinckle+group%3Amicrosoft.*.ie6_outlookexpress&btnG=Search >

(Google Groups search for
    "troubleshooting logging" 211 author:aldwinckle group:microsoft.*.ie6_outlookexpress
)

<
http://groups.google.com/groups?num=20&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&q=telnet+119+author%3Aaldwinckle+group%3Amicrosoft.*.ie6_outlookexpress&btnG=Search >

(Google Groups search for
    telnet 119 author:aldwinckle group:microsoft.*.ie6_outlookexpress
)

> This post I just made in answer to Steve is my attempt to clear up my confusion

I think I'll wait to see what Steve has to say. <EG>
However, I can point out that I do have different opinions about
some of the settings particularly for dial-up users who want to work
offline mostly. If you like you could try doing some more more
Google Groups searches on your own to find those.

HTH

Robert 

---
"Chad Harris" <ddram32_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:uAbWmK5YEHA.1652@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
Robert--
I don't know if it was the resetting--see my followup question to make sure I understand what these less than intuitive (for me) 
General and Mail tab items mean) but Steve's suggestion fixed his ability to see all the new messages.  He was getting new posts, 
but couldn't get a particular thread's updates--and that inconsistency I can't explain.
Particular server--His ISP is RoadRunner (Time Warner)of NE Ohio as far as I know and he doesn't have a server in his setup.
http://about.neo.rr.com/serviceareas.html
How soon after--minutes to days--didn't make a different.
His concern--He was very alert to the time window, but he couldn't see any answers to a post which was his first on these 
newsgroups.  I wanted to make sure he was able to update all messages so he would have use of the OE NTTP reader with the MSFT 
public groups.
The monitoring-- is an interesting concept--I know MSFT watches the groups with varying degrees to help answer questions and get 
suggestions and that their overall working is coordinated but I didn't know they were being vetted or anything like that to the 
extent it would impact posting.  Mine usually show up within "about" a 2-3 minute time period.  But his problem was that he couldn't 
download the answer to a problem he had posted in the Outlook group and I had seen the answer almost immediately on July 1.  Until 
he followed Steve's suggestion a little while ago on July 6, he wasn't seeing that answer.  Maybe the resetting did it.  I'm not 
sure how taking the check out of the download headers boxes would have helped.
On line state--good point.  I don't work offline but there may be niches for that I don't appreciate--limlted bandwidth or limited 
time online.  This is something I should appreciate better but don't--other reasons for working off line.
I appreciate your clarification on the Inbox for the first method I mentioned but don't understand then what the Automatically 
Download Messages in Preview pane does if it doesn't download new headers.  Also I'm probably confusing headers with messages.  Do 
the posts not download from the server until you click on the header?
Troubleshootooting logging or telnet--I'm not sure I know how to do either--sounds helpful in situations like this.  This post I 
just made in answer to Steve is my attempt to clear up my confusion on what these boxes mean on the General and Read tabs:
Maybe I also need to change my thinking about how I download new messages, but it seems to be working--  I seem to be able to update 
fine.
I get upated (new posts) and new answers by two means as far as I can tell.  If I go out of this group and shut down OE or come back 
into this group, then I get all the latest posts--I don't think that headers setting figures in here (but maybe it does).  If I'm in 
the group and have been reading posts for a while, I'll hit  (on the main OE toolbar)Tools>Syncronize Newsgroup>Get the Following 
Items>newsmessages only and the progress bar runs.
On the General Tab I have cks. in: 1) Automatically Display Folders of Unread Messages 2) Send and Receive Messages at Startup
3) Check for new messages every  (5) minutes  4) If my computer is not connected at this time connect only when not working off line 
(isn't that a double negative?)
On the Read Tab I have chks. in 1) Automatically expand grouped messages 2) Automatically download message when viewing in preview 
pane 3) Get (300) headers at a time  4) No check in mark all messages as read when exiting newsgroup
Would you modify this?--I know you said to get the check out of the Get X # of headers at a time box.  I'm not sure what these boxes 
mean and I'm not sure why you said that.
              General Tab:
  Automatically display folders of unread messages--gives you maximum chance to see all the messages???
  Send and receive messages at startup--refers to mail and not newsgroup messages???
  Check for new messages every 5 minutes--refers to mail and not newsgroup messages???
  Connect only when not working off line--have no idea what they mean by this and if it impacts ng messages
           Read Tab:
            Mark messages read after displaying for (5) seconds--not sure of this
            Automatically download messages when viewing in the Preview Pane--I thought this meant
            that when you go into a group for the first time after opening OE or from another group that
            all new messages would download
           Get 300 headers at a time--why do you want this unchecked and what does  it mean--doesn't it help
           you download the headers (and messages)?
            Mark all messages as read when exiting a newsgroup--not sure of this
            Thanks much,
             Chad Harris
__________________________________________________________________________________
"Robert Aldwinckle" <robald@techemail.com> wrote in message news:OovMSz3YEHA.1448@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> he just can't update messages after his post.
>
> Is this happening on a particular server?  How soon after his post
> is he trying?  If he is just concerned about not being able to see his post
> quickly after sending it make him aware that it takes time for a message
> to be received and archived especially if the newsgroup is monitored.
> If the newsgroup is one which isn't updated frequently it could be that
> his is the only post which would be contained in the next update and
> therefore he wouldn't see any change until it was ready to be sent.
>
>
>> 2) A second way is to close out of the newsgroup, and when you go
>> back to the group you'll be updated.
>
> Yes.  Provided you open it while you are in a Working Online state.
>
>
>> This is controlled I thought by Tools>Options>General Tab>Check for
>> messages every (5) minutes and Tools Options>Read tab>
>> Automatically Download Messages in Preview pane.
>
> No.  That first option is mostly for servicing the Inbox.  It wasn't really
> intended for updating news and won't work for news anyway unless
> you check  "Include this account when checking for new messages"
> (in Accounts, Properties, General tab).   The other methods all rely
> on manual intervention e.g. entering the news group, pressing F5, etc.
> and I think that they are preferable.
>
> The second option has nothing to do with getting new headers which
> is what you are concerned with.
>
>
> You might want to get him to activate troubleshooting logging
> (or use telnet to monitor the newsgroup's status.)
> If there is no change in the server's  211 reply to Group request
> you would have an explanation for him which would be independent
> of him using OE.
>
>
> HTH
>
> Robert Aldwinckle
> ---
>
>
> "Chad Harris" <ddram32_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:%236ORUvvYEHA.4004@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> My friend cannot update new  newsgroup messages.     He's using OE6 and has updated all its patches/security updates with Windows 
> XP
> SP1.  My understanding is that there would be 4 ways to do this, and he is deploying all all 4 from the OE toolbar.   If I'm 
> missing
> any, or misconstruing them, that's why I'm here.  I've been all over OE help and the OE MVP sites.  I think OE help could be a lot
> better.  I didn't see anything in the MSKBs that will remedy this, and considered his ISP, but he can access and post to the
> newsgroups--he just can't update messages after his post.
>
> 1) The way I use to update messages is Tools>Syncronize Newsgroup>Get the following items>New Messages only.
> 2) A second way is to close out of the newsgroup, and when you go back to the group you'll be updated.  This is controlled I 
> thought
> by Tools>Options>General Tab>Check for messages every (5) minutes and Tools Options>Read tab>
> Automatically Download Messages in Preview pane.
> 3) A third way would be to close out of OE and fire it up again for the same reason as above.
> 4) A fourth way would be to syncronize all groups at Tools>Get New Messages.
>
> I'm not sure if Syncronizing all would impact this.
>
> Thanks for any help in straightening this out.
>
>
> Chad Harris
>
>
>

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