Re: Development with IE 7 for non-Windows users.


Rob ^_^ wrote:

Hi Daz,
You hit the nail with "The most used browser in the world". Thats the point.
When developing you have to know your market. Its no use spending 90% of
your development time catering for 10% of the market.
So you have made your personal choices for an operating system and
browser... fair enough.... but Who, What , When, Where and Why? you may ask?

You are now faced with the opposite problem.. you are spending 90% of your
time catering for 80% of the market... trying to code around IE versions on
your non windows development platform. This is by far the biggest slice of
your potential market yet you have choosen a development platform that
caters for the smallest slice.

So is there a strategy forward for you?

Are you going to wait for MS to release a 'fully compliant' browser? I don't
think so. Regardless of 'non-compliance' tag IE IS the most popular browser
(popular may be the wrong word, most used is probably more appropiate) and
there are technical and business reasons why the rollout of a fully
complient IE is difficult, but most importantly there is no return on the
investment for doing so. The only complaintants are developers - market
share 1%.

You will have to decide upon your strategies. You have to ask yourself those
5 questions - who, what, when, where and why.

There is a simple development solution though. The KISS principle - Keep it
Simple/Stupid - avoid fancy styling, actually I think we should all avoid
using server side styling, after all isn't the User King, let the user
decide how they want to see your web pages. Avoid scripting - all browsers
recognise the <a> tag! - Follow the KISS principle and you should be able to
produce pages that will work equally well on all browsers, but regardless of
that you are inviting disaster and embarrasment unless you fully test your
apps on all targeted platforms and browsers. That realy leaves you with no
choice but to get your hands on the additional hardware and software for a
comprehensive testing environment to cater for your target market.

You choice of a development and testing environment should be driven by your
answers to those 5 questions, not your personal preferences. After all are
you in it for fun or for business?

Regards.
"Daz" <cutenfuzzy@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1166035661.924338.133360@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Hi everyone.

I am sure this question has already been asked, but I have not yet
found a satisfactory answer myself. I hope that this may turn into a
discussion, as I would like to hear all views on the subject. I am
going to try not to rant, but I am sure the majority of readers will
understand my frustration.

I am currently a newbie web developer. Although, newbie might be an
understatement -- as I have been doing it for about a year and have
managed to complete some very interesting and quite unique projects --
in my eyes I will always be a newbie purely because I am always
learning.

Anyway... I am running Linux, which is my Operating System of choice
from a development perspective, and I have found a great way to install
IE 5, 5.5 and 6, by means of an installer dreamed up and brought to
life by a kind gentleman at http://www.tatanka.com.br/. Naturally, I am
a fan of Firefox. Again, this is my personal preference for what I
believe to be obvious reasons. Although there are times when I feel
like pulling my hair out because IE refuses to do something that
Firefox does happily, it's a lot nicer to have the opportunity to see
how something works (or doesn't work) in the commonly used IE browsers.

The majority of the world's population probably don't even know what
Firefox is, or perhaps lack the understanding of what a browser really
is, and fail to realise that there are others available besides the one
that came with their operating system. I guess what I am getting at is
that it's just something that has to be dealt with by all web
developers, so of course, we have to create our pages with the most
'used' browser in the world, in mind.

Up until now, I have only had a few quarms about having to develop
material to work with a browser that doesn't comply with a lot of the
existing standards/recommendations. Now my greatest concern is what's
going to happen when I want to develop a page and test it on IE7. When
the final version is released into the public domain, it's going to be
something that Windows users will need to validate their Windows
install for, in order to get it, using WGA.

Again, I am trying not to moan here, but I feel that although it's bad
enough that Microsoft have slammed the door on web developers by being
so different from most other browsers, this time they've made it even
worse, by slamming the door with the web developers fingers still in
it! What are non-Windows users meant to do? Are we expected to pay for
IE7 so we can develop web pages that should work with most browsers
anyway, but actually won't work with IE?

Perhaps I am missing something here. Please could someone point it out
if I am? I don't want to bash Microsoft, but I feel this is starting to
get rediculous, and I suspect I am not on my own.

I welcome the views and opinions of other people who might be in the
same position (i.e. a non-Windows user). Also, any advice on how to
develop web pages that work with IE7, only without using IE7, would be
appreciated.

Many thanks.

Daz.

Hi Rob. Thanks for the reply.

I agree with quite a lot of what you said, however, I also believe that
people should be free to use whatever software they want to view
webpages, and not have one company/organization who dictate how it
should be done, simply because they have the most users.

Standards organizations such as W3C, have members which I believe are
responsible deciding which standards get implemented and which do not.
The members come up with a new standard, and I beleive it has to be
OK'd by at least the majority of the other members in order to be
considered as a standard. The ironic thing, is that for W3C in
particular, Microsoft ARE one of their member organizations. Therefore
they help decide what standards are released into the public domain as
recommendations. If this is the case, then why don't they obide by
them?

In a sense, it's like the government making some kind of law for all of
the countries citizens, and enforcing them, but the government
themselves breaking these laws.

I guess the main reason I decided to use Firefox, besides it seeming to
be more secure and stable, was that I am a bit of a rebel and I am not
a big fan of authoritarians such a Microsoft who dictate how things
should be done. With that said, I agree that I might have shot myself
in the foot. It just seems that Microsoft are abusing their power in
such a way that it even effects the users who don't own any Microsoft
products. Yes, they have done very well to get where they are, but now
they appear to be using crafty strategies to influence everyone else in
the world, even moreso the ones who are trying to give the little guys
(i.e Mozilla) a chance.

I am sad to say this, but I cannot wait for the day when Firefox has
more users than IE. That day might never come, but I can only hope it
does as I don't agree with Microsoft's morals.

Sorry to bust your bubble, but I do it for fun. :) Don't get me wrong,
I can see where you're coming from, and I agree. But I am just one of
those developers who believes in freedom of speech, freedom of choice,
and that the best things in life are free. I love collaberating with
others to bring new unique ideas to life, and not charging them for it.
It's hard work, but it makes me happy. If anyone decides that they like
what I have created that much, and would like to contribute toward a
few beers, or a months webhosting etc... it's received very gracefully,
but I don't demand it.

It just saddens me to see companies like Microsoft who have already
earnt an absolute fortune, getting greedy. It's everyone's right to
make money, but there is a difference between being greedy and doing
whatever it takes to get it, and playing a fair game.

What I am doing for fun and for others is going to end up costing me
money, which either prevents me from learning and doing what I enjoy,
or forces me to turn it into a money thing and start charging people,
which I shouldn't have to do. The comment you made about web sites
being simple (KISS). Yes, I agree, however, I still believe that you
should be able to design a website the way YOU want to, and not the way
Microsoft says you have to. Imagine what websites would look like if we
had no CSS? Some minimalistic people wouldn't mind, I'm sure, but we
are moving forward in times. Technology is getting more advanced, and
fantastic new things become available.

Microsoft are in the position to affect everyone who doesn't want to
pay them. I personally think they should play fair and release a cross
platform version of IE, but without all the bells ,whistles and other
shiny new stuff. All a web developer really cares about, is how the
page is displayed in the browser and how it works. We don't care about
all the features and other stuff that's added to the browser which
Microsoft are charging the user for.

I had a simple table, with plain text inside of it. The table displays
differently in IE from what it does using Netscape, Opera, Firefox, and
Konqueror. Why? It should be down to the web developer to decide what a
page looks like, and Microsoft shouldn't feel the need to undermine web
developers and add methods to IE that make it look the way Microsoft
thinks it should look.

One more question. As Microsoft have the majority market share, why
doesn't every other browser follow suit and do things Microsoft's way?
Personally, I feel it's because they all want to play fair and use the
standards that have been put in place for a reason. :)

Many, many thanks for your view, though, Rob. They certainly pointed a
few things out that I had never thought of.

Daz.

.

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