Re: 3 workgroup PCs that can ping but unable to see PCs in workgro

On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 10:56:08 -0700, Chris Brobst
<ChrisBrobst@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>
>
>"Chuck" wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 10 Oct 2005 07:04:29 -0700, Chris Brobst
>> <ChrisBrobst@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> >"Chuck" wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Fri, 7 Oct 2005 05:45:02 -0700, Chris Brobst
>> >> <ChrisBrobst@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >"Chuck" wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Thu, 6 Oct 2005 09:56:03 -0700, Chris Brobst
>> >> >> <ChrisBrobst@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >"Chuck" wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 10:29:03 -0700, Chris Brobst
>> >> >> >> <ChrisBrobst@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >--------------PC 1 ------------------------------------------
>> >> >> >> >Windows IP Configuration
>> >> >> >> > Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : E589BD7506A54D4
>> >> >> >> > Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . :
>> >> >> >> > Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Unknown
>> >> >> >> > IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
>> >> >> >> > WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection:
>> >> >> >> > Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
>> >> >> >> > Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Intel(R) PRO/100 VE Network
>> >> >> >> >Connection
>> >> >> >> > Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-0F-FE-34-81-0B
>> >> >> >> > Dhcp Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
>> >> >> >> > Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
>> >> >> >> > IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.0.104
>> >> >> >> > Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
>> >> >> >> > Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.0.1
>> >> >> >> > DHCP Server . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.0.1
>> >> >> >> > DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.0.1
>> >> >> >> > Lease Obtained. . . . . . . . . . : Tuesday, October 04, 2005
>> >> >> >> >11:52:21 AM
>> >> >> >> > Lease Expires . . . . . . . . . . : Tuesday, October 04, 2005
>> >> >> >> >11:53:21 AM
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >Status for domain WORKGROUP on transport
>> >> >> >> >\Device\NetBT_Tcpip_{C499EBE2-9F6B-4A48-9F01-2A5EF66CDBC7}
>> >> >> >> > Browsing is active on domain.
>> >> >> >> > Master browser name is: D60B7B834B9E4A0
>> >> >> >> >Could not open key in registry, error = 5 Unable to determine build
>> >> >> >> >of browser master: 5
>> >> >> >> > \\\\D60B7B834B9E4A. Version:05.01 Flags: 51003 NT POTENTIAL MASTER
>> >> >> >> > 1 backup servers retrieved from master D60B7B834B9E4A0
>> >> >> >> > \\D60B7B834B9E4A0
>> >> >> >> > There are 0 servers in domain WORKGROUP on transport
>> >> >> >> >\Device\NetBT_Tcpip_{C499EBE2-9F6B-4A48-9F01-2A5EF66CDBC7}
>> >> >> >> > There are 1 domains in domain WORKGROUP on transport
>> >> >> >> >\Device\NetBT_Tcpip_{C499EBE2-9F6B-4A48-9F01-2A5EF66CDBC7}
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >-----------PC
>> >> >> >> >2---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> >> >Windows IP Configuration
>> >> >> >> > Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : D60B7B834B9E4A0
>> >> >> >> > Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . :
>> >> >> >> > Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Unknown
>> >> >> >> > IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
>> >> >> >> > WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection:
>> >> >> >> > Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
>> >> >> >> > Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Intel(R) PRO/100 VE Network
>> >> >> >> >Connection
>> >> >> >> > Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-0F-FE-34-80-95
>> >> >> >> > Dhcp Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
>> >> >> >> > Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
>> >> >> >> > IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.0.158
>> >> >> >> > Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
>> >> >> >> > Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.0.1
>> >> >> >> > DHCP Server . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.0.1
>> >> >> >> > DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.0.1
>> >> >> >> > Lease Obtained. . . . . . . . . . : Tuesday, October 04, 2005
>> >> >> >> >12:50:08 PM
>> >> >> >> > Lease Expires . . . . . . . . . . : Tuesday, October 04, 2005
>> >> >> >> >12:51:08 PM
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >Status for domain WORKGROUP on transport
>> >> >> >> >\Device\NetBT_Tcpip_{0A311C16-68C2-47CA-A34D-3A8851D51C1D}
>> >> >> >> > Browsing is active on domain.
>> >> >> >> > Master browser name is: D60B7B834B9E4A0
>> >> >> >> > Master browser is running build 2600
>> >> >> >> > 1 backup servers retrieved from master D60B7B834B9E4A0
>> >> >> >> > \\D60B7B834B9E4A0
>> >> >> >> > There are 0 servers in domain WORKGROUP on transport
>> >> >> >> >\Device\NetBT_Tcpip_{0A311C16-68C2-47CA-A34D-3A8851D51C1D}
>> >> >> >> > There are 1 domains in domain WORKGROUP on transport
>> >> >> >> >\Device\NetBT_Tcpip_{0A311C16-68C2-47CA-A34D-3A8851D51C1D}
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >---------PC
>> >> >> >> >3-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >Windows IP Configuration
>> >> >> >> > Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : 9BF7E67DF7844EE
>> >> >> >> > Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . :
>> >> >> >> > Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Unknown
>> >> >> >> > IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
>> >> >> >> > WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection:
>> >> >> >> > Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
>> >> >> >> > Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Intel(R) PRO/100 VE Network
>> >> >> >> >Connection
>> >> >> >> > Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-0F-FE-34-80-ED
>> >> >> >> > Dhcp Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
>> >> >> >> > Autoconfiguration Enabled . . . . : Yes
>> >> >> >> > IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.0.192
>> >> >> >> > Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
>> >> >> >> > Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.0.1
>> >> >> >> > DHCP Server . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.0.1
>> >> >> >> > DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.0.1
>> >> >> >> > Lease Obtained. . . . . . . . . . : Tuesday, October 04, 2005
>> >> >> >> >12:50:23 PM
>> >> >> >> > Lease Expires . . . . . . . . . . : Tuesday, October 04, 2005
>> >> >> >> >12:51:23 PM
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >Status for domain WORKGROUP on transport
>> >> >> >> >\Device\NetBT_Tcpip_{BF9BC44F-4F22-41C3-877F-8316C74F49CD}
>> >> >> >> > Browsing is active on domain.
>> >> >> >> > Master browser name is: D60B7B834B9E4A0
>> >> >> >> >Could not open key in registry, error = 5 Unable to determine build
>> >> >> >> >of browser master: 5
>> >> >> >> > \\\\D60B7B834B9E4A. Version:05.01 Flags: 51003 NT POTENTIAL MASTER
>> >> >> >> > 1 backup servers retrieved from master D60B7B834B9E4A0
>> >> >> >> > \\D60B7B834B9E4A0
>> >> >> >> > There are 0 servers in domain WORKGROUP on transport
>> >> >> >> >\Device\NetBT_Tcpip_{BF9BC44F-4F22-41C3-877F-8316C74F49CD}
>> >> >> >> > There are 1 domains in domain WORKGROUP on transport
>> >> >> >> >\Device\NetBT_Tcpip_{BF9BC44F-4F22-41C3-877F-8316C74F49CD}
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Chris,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> OK, that's a start. You have 3 computers, and each has elected the same master
>> >> >> >> browser - D60B7B834B9E4A0. Yet each shows:
>> >> >> >> There are 0 servers in domain WORKGROUP
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> And you have on each of the 2 that are not D60B7B834B9E4A0:
>> >> >> >> Could not open key in registry, error = 5
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> You need to start with looking for misconfigured / overlooked firewalls, and at
>> >> >> >> registry setting restrictanonymous, on each computer.
>> >> >> >> Misconfigured / overlooked firewalls:
>> >> >> >> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/05/your-personal-firewall-can-either-help.html>
>> >> >> >> Registry setting restrictanonymous:
>> >> >> >> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/07/restrictanonymous-and-your-server.html>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> If no help yet, read my articles:
>> >> >> >> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/06/mysterious-error-5-aka-access-denied.html>
>> >> >> >> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/06/mysterious-error-5-aka-access-denied.html
>> >> >> >> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/04/nt-browser-or-why-cant-i-always-see.html>
>> >> >> >> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/04/nt-browser-or-why-cant-i-always-see.html
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Please let us know if any of these suggestions are of any help. What you learn
>> >> >> >> may help others in the future, and that's the purpose of these forums.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >Now I have check the firewall setting on each computer and they look good. I
>> >> >> >even disabled the firewall on each client. Still no luck. I looked at the
>> >> >> >router's firewall settings and its wide open. I also check the registry
>> >> >> >settings for the guest account and everything is set correctly. We have the
>> >> >> >guest acct active and checked that. Also check the security policy to logon
>> >> >> >locally and anonymously. I also checked the registry settings as indicated in
>> >> >> >your KB.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Question - can imaging machines cause issues with the browser? As 2 of the 3
>> >> >> >machines here are exact images -minus computer name?
>> >> >> >Question - does the NetBIOS name have to be less the 8 characters?
>> >> >> >Question - will using the (default option) NetBIOS over TCPIP play a role in
>> >> >> >this issue?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Any help would be greatly appreciated as I have to create an image of a
>> >> >> >machine that if network ready with the capabilities of browsing the network
>> >> >> >at anytime in a workgroup.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Thanks.
>> >> >> >Chris
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Chris,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The browser is a dynamic, peer-peer resource cataloging system. As long as
>> >> >> you're not imaging a computer that some server (Windows computer running the
>> >> >> server service) sees as its browser, the browser process won't be affected.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> You should find details about these issues:
>> >> >> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/04/nt-browser-or-why-cant-i-always-see.html>
>> >> >> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/04/nt-browser-or-why-cant-i-always-see.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >> There is no 8-character limit on NetBIOS names. There are some name length
>> >> >> limits, but none that involve 8 characters, that I am aware of.
>> >> >> <http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/en/advanced/help/default.asp?url=/windows2000/en/advanced/help/print_choosing_a_printer_name.htm>
>> >> >> http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/en/advanced/help/default.asp?url=/windows2000/en/advanced/help/print_choosing_a_printer_name.htm
>> >> >> <http://support.microsoft.com/?id=231312>
>> >> >> http://support.microsoft.com/?id=231312
>> >> >> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/05/troubleshooting-network-neighborhood.html#Sharing>
>> >> >> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/05/troubleshooting-network-neighborhood.html#Sharing
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The Default NBT setting could be a problem. If your DHCP server is a NAT
>> >> >> router, it won't provide the setting to turn NetBIOS on. That setting is for
>> >> >> LANs that have real DHCP servers, not NAT routers running DHCP.
>> >> >> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/05/troubleshooting-network-neighborhood.html#Components>
>> >> >> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/05/troubleshooting-network-neighborhood.html#Components
>> >>
>> >> >Thanks.
>> >> >No server will be running and Yes the router, I believe uses NAT.
>> >> >All machines are XP Pro.
>> >> >
>> >> >With that should we be use the Peer to Peer service or the Simple TCP/IP?
>> >> >Both are currently turned off on the computers.
>> >>
>> >> Chris,
>> >>
>> >> The essential components and services are listed in my article:
>> >> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/05/troubleshooting-network-neighborhood.html#Components>
>> >> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/05/troubleshooting-network-neighborhood.html#Components
>> >>
>> >> If you want to know more about services, here is the definitive reference:
>> >> <http://web.archive.org/web/20041130032640/http://www.blackviper.com/WinXP/servicecfg.htm>
>> >> http://web.archive.org/web/20041130032640/http://www.blackviper.com/WinXP/servicecfg.htm
>>
>> >Still having problems:
>> >- I am not sure exactly what you are saying about imaging a server that
>> >service was running on. Do you mean that I may have imaged a machine and
>> >while it already had a master browser to point to?
>> >
>> >Ther are 2 types of images running in this test workgroup.
>> >2 as an image of on antother with differnt PC names and 2 of a different
>> >image with different PC names.
>> >All the PCs have teh following services running.
>> >-Computer browser
>> >-server
>> >-TCP/IP/net bios helper
>> >
>> >
>> >Any help that i can get for this would greatly be appricated as it is
>> >holding up my project from deployment.
>>
>> Chris,
>>
>> The discussion about imaging may or may not be relevant to your problem. I was
>> saying that the browsing process involves a "server" (remember that all Windows
>> Networking computers are servers). As long as you don't interfere with the
>> server that's actually providing browsing services, you can image all you want,
>> without causing any problems.
>>
>> If you're worried about a need to hold up your imaging until you resolve your
>> browsing problems, I suggest that you read a bit about the issue, so you can
>> plan your activities more effectively.
>> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/04/nt-browser-or-why-cant-i-always-see.html>
>> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/04/nt-browser-or-why-cant-i-always-see.html
>>
>> You do need NetBIOS Over TCP/IP working. If your DHCP server is a NAT router,
>> that means you have to have NBT set to Enable, NOT to Default. Default is for
>> LANs with an actual DHCP server, where the DHCP server can issue a setting to
>> enable or disable NBT.
>>
>> All that said, I have to warn you that I'm currently suffering from discussion
>> latency, so I will have to reread the discussion a bit to verify what we've done
>> to date. The whole issue of Windows Networking is unbelievably complex when it
>> goes wrong. Please read some of my articles at the top of my Welcome article.
>> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/12/welcome-to-pchucks-network.html>
>> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/12/welcome-to-pchucks-network.html
>>
>> When you say "Still having problems" without providing any detail as to what
>> you've done, in response to the articles which I suggested you read, you're not
>> helping either of us.
>>
>> In reviewing your "browstat status" and "ipconfig /all" listings, I see:
>> "There are 0 servers in domain WORKGROUP"
>> too consistently. You have to solve this first. IMHE, you should see:
>> "There are n servers in domain WORKGROUP", where n should equal the number of
>> computers on the network at any time. Did you read my specified article?
>> <http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/05/troubleshooting-network-neighborhood.html#Components>
>> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/05/troubleshooting-network-neighborhood.html#Components
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>> Chuck, MS-MVP [Windows - Networking]
>> http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/
>> Paranoia is not a problem, when it's a normal response from experience.
>> My email is AT DOT
>> actual address pchuck mvps org.
>
>
>
>Chuck,
>Sorry about the posts just has been very frustrating. I have been all over
>your site and it looks as I have everything set correctly on each computer. I
>have check the following on each computer:
>-Client for MS Networks
>-File & Print Sharing for MS Networks
>-NetBios over TCP/IP enabled
>-TCP/IP NetBios helper is installed and running
>-ICS Service is installed and runing
>-reg setting for restrictanonymous is to 0
>-Guest account is enabled and active
>-Local Security Policy:
>----allow guest to log on locally
>----allow guest to access this computer form the network
>
>
>The following has also been performed
>-tried a regular hub and no issue, so i know its not the router.
>-diasabled XP firewall on PCs (just to be sure) (LAN and file and print
>sharing were set as exceptions)
>-browstat on all computers after reboot and all PCs showed the correct
>number of servers in the domain. (only shows 0 after 45 mins.)

Great, this starts to sound, more and more, like a browser election problem.
Browser elections take from 6 to 52 minutes to take effect. The time range is
best explained by Microsoft in their white paper.
<http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winntas/deploy/prodspecs/ntbrowse.mspx>
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winntas/deploy/prodspecs/ntbrowse.mspx

Do you note the problem during the first 45 minutes, or after? Can you
reliably
reproduce the significant 45 minute time frame, so you can do tests before and
after? Maybe we can look at D60B7B834B9E4A0 "browstat status" before and
after?
Is D60B7B834B9E4A0 consistently elected as master browser? Is there anything
special about D60B7B834B9E4A0?

Is the XP firewall the only firewall involved? What antivirus products are
involved?
<http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/05/your-personal-firewall-can-either-help.html>
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/05/your-personal-firewall-can-either-help.html

>-check to see if winsock is corupted and it passed MS KB test

Which Winsock test did you do? There are 4, though only one is provided by
Microsoft.
<http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/05/problems-with-lsp-winsock-layer-in.html>
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/05/problems-with-lsp-winsock-layer-in.html

>I have also been able to turn off the browser service all all machines but
>one and everythig is fine. however I must have this service on and set to
>start up automatically. (my project reqsthat PCs must be "network ready")
>
>I have also checked the reg key:
>ISDOMAINMASTER - FALSE
>MAINTAINSERVERLIST -AUTO

When you say "everythig is fine", do you mean that the reported symptoms go
away? Before or after (or both) the magical 45 minutes? Why then must you
"have this service on and set to start up automatically"? Am I
misunderstanding
what you're reporting, or are you maybe misunderstanding the difference
between
a solution and a workaround? What's the problem here?

Admittedly, the necessity of disabling the browser service is a pain, but in a
workgroup environment (and without an actual server) this is necessary to
prevent browser conflicts. I try to explain, and justify, the necessity in my
browser article.
<http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/04/nt-browser-or-why-cant-i-always-see.html>
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/2005/04/nt-browser-or-why-cant-i-always-see.html

--
Cheers,
Chuck, MS-MVP [Windows - Networking]
http://nitecruzr.blogspot.com/
Paranoia is not a problem, when it's a normal response from experience.
My email is AT DOT
actual address pchuck mvps org.


Chuck,
When I say everything is Ok, I mean:
-The problem does not exist. I am able to see all PCs in workgroup. This is
only if there is one PC in the workgroup with the browser service started.
All others is off.

I am looking for a solution not a workaround. Having the service stopped on
all PCs except one is will not work in my situation.

This might be more information than needed but this is why I need a
solution. I am creating 2 images of 2 types of PCs. These images will be sent
to HP. HP will then image the machines and sell these images to my clients.
Each client will purchase approx 6-9 computers of image #1 and 0-1 computers
of image #2. Each client will take these PCs and place in a singe office
location (store). My clients will then network those computers together. To
avoid support costs, setup costs or having the client try and set up the
network themselves. We need to customize these PCs to be network ready (plug
and play) so all my client will have to do is un-box the PCs and plug them
into a router.

With the above said, if we sent out an image with the browser service
disabled the client would still have to enable the browser service upon
arrival of the PC. (or vice/versa - sending browser service out enabled).
With approx 200-300 offices that need to configure an office annually this
can be very problematic during setup and down the road.

We really appreciate all the help you have provided us so far. If there is
any additional information that we can provide please let me know. By the way
my e-mail is chris.brobst@xxxxxxxxxx . I would be more than happy to setup a
call if that is possible or remote access. Please let me know.

Once again Thanks.

Chris

.

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