Re: Mei Chan [MSFT]
From: americantechie (john_at_americantechie.com)
Date: 03/03/04
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Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 23:25:54 -0700
Hello Fred,
Just to anwer some of your latest questions...
First a quick note: Of the items in MSCONFIG, those that are on the
services tab are by far the most important. When I troubleshoot a computer
sometimes I don't even look at the startup, I just go straight for the
services tab.
Zonealarm - good product and powerful, however I have seen it cause it's
fair share of problems. Earlier I mentioned that some software has entries
on both the startup and the services tab, I believe Zonealarm is one of
those programs, make sure you hit both areas. When I troubleshoot a
computer with networking programs I like to play it safe by uninstalling the
firewall, you can always reinstall it later. Of course you can simply
disable it first but if that doesn't fix the problem I say go ahead and
remove. Other than that I do not have any extra input on removing this
program. You could always do away with this type of headache by investing
in a router with filtering capabilities which also acts as a firewall.
Good luck!
John
<Fred@anonymous.com> wrote in message
news:40456B8F.DBE517D9@global2000.net...
> Hi John,
>
> Thanks for getting back to me on this one. I wanted to also let you know
that I
> also disabled the NIC connection and the problem was still there. Just for
your
> info as that was another thing you mentioned.
>
> I've already tried unchecking everything in the "startup" tab and tested
with no
> luck there.
>
> I will go the processes route tomorrow and again will report back here. I
sure
> hope we find what the heck is going on. I've also created another thread
asking
> for ideas about what folks think about the difference between safemode and
> normal mode could be as I wasn't sure if you were able to get back to me
on this
> thread. No big deal, that can't hurt, I suppose.
>
> Your comments about the firewall have me wondering. Before I got this far,
I
> read numerous posts that one should remove the firewall. I have Zone Alarm
(free
> version - just updated actually) and before the update I removed it and
still
> had the problem. Now I realize that it might be more than just ZA and
could be a
> combination of programs.
>
> Let me get this clear, do you mean totally uninstall it or just uncheck
the
> "load at startup" option in ZA. I've seen other posts that say you should
also
> delete all the files in the c:\windows\internet logs folder - any comments
on
> that?
>
> Lastly, my systems are clean, I regularly run Adaware and Spybot, and use
eTrust
> EZAV and update daily manually. I even ran a virus check on my C drive
again
> this afternoon for the hell of it.
>
> Thanks again, John, and I hope I have good news tomorrow.
>
> Fred
>
>
> americantechie wrote:
>
> > Hello Fred,
> >
> > Excellent troubleshooting, it seems we are getting somewhere! When you
run
> > into a tricky problem the only way you can get to a resolution is to
test,
> > test, test. This process is a textbook case of what Microsoft support
calls
> > SAFEMODE/CLEANBOOT troubleshooting or and can be used for most problems
.
> > This is basically a process of elimation and we will continue this
process
> > from here. You started out in safemode w/ networking which disables
most
> > hardware and software except that which is required to boot the computer
and
> > get basic network functionality. We have isolated the problem computer
> > (desktop) and know that it also works when in a state of bare bones
> > functionality. We also know the problem lies in either hardware or
software
> > that was disabled but does not appear to be a Windows "system" error
such as
> > corruption because the problem went away in safemode. We will now focus
our
> > attention on everything that safemode has disabled. The next step is
the
> > "cleanboot" part of the process. The tool we will use from here is
MSCONFIG
> > (start -> run -> msconfig) which allows us to disable services and
software
> > which loads on startup. Note that MSCONFIG does not have the ability to
> > disable hardware as safemode did. Hardware could still be a cause of
the
> > problem however in this situation it is unlikely. If MSCONFIG does not
lead
> > to a resolution then we can revisit this possibility. In the MSCONFIG
> > tool you will see tabs across the top, we are only concerned about the
last
> > two which are services and startup. The services tab generally refers
to
> > programs that actively run in the background such as Anti-Virus software
and
> > are non user specific. On this tab make sure you click "hide all
microsoft
> > services". This option makes no physical changes and leaves a list that
> > only contains third party services. We do this because it is unlikely
that
> > a Microsoft service is causing the problem and some services are better
left
> > alone if possible. An example is the system restore service which will
kill
> > all of your old restore points when stopped. You are left with a much
> > smaller and easier to manage list, uncheck everything and it might even
be a
> > good idea to keep a log as you go as things can change. Next click on
the
> > startup tab and uncheck everything. Click OK and you will then be
prompted
> > to reboot, click OK to reboot. When the computer comes back up test the
> > problem again, if the problem does not appear then we know the culprit
lies
> > in one of the items that we unchecked in msconfig. Again... we are
using a
> > process of elimination, you can now go back to MSCONFIG and check one
item
> > that we had unchecked earlier, click OK, reboot, test again, rinse,
repeat.
> > Keep doing this until the problem comes back, you will then look at your
log
> > to find the last item that was checked and you have found the cause.
Put
> > the computer back to normal, reboot, remove the offending software. As
a
> > variation of the above step you can check two items at a time, or three,
or
> > you can do a "divide and conquer" approach where you check half of the
> > items, make sure you keep a good log. I have posted a small technical
> > handbook so I will stop here, again I have given you lots to chew on so
have
> > fun! Please post your results.
> >
> > Extra notes:
> > I would guess that firewalls are one of the biggest call generators to
MS
> > networking support, if you have third party firewall software installed,
> > REMOVE IT. In some cases even disabling a firewall may not fix a
problem
> > that was caused by the firewall.
> >
> > When rechecking disabled items in msconfig it does not matter if you
start
> > with services or startup as they are all suspects to be treated equally.
> > You may see things in one of these tabs that are more obvious as a
possible
> > suspect than others such as firewalls in this case. Make sure you keep
a
> > log. Some programs may have enties in both services AND startup, the
most
> > important area being services.
> >
> > Before doing any of the above make sure you have disabled any Firewall
> > software you may have loaded because
> >
> > Have problems browsing? Keep your computer free of spyware by
installing,
> > UPDATING, then scanning with software such as Adaware. Like antivirus
> > software this is only effective if you update the program. This is
another
> > big generator of networking calls to microsoft however it is unlikely to
be
> > causing problems in this case.
> >
> > Good luck!
> >
> > John
> >
> > <Fred@anonymous.com> wrote in message
> > news:40452ED3.A17805E5@global2000.net...
> > > Hello John and ??
> > >
> > > Well I did some troubleshooting and got mixed results.
> > >
> > > First of all, I booted both the desktop AND laptop in SAFE MODE with
> > Networking.
> > > The good news is everything WORKED! I was able to place a file in a
> > desktop
> > > share folder, then access it using the laptop, then delete the file on
the
> > > desktop. THIS DOES NOT WORK IN NORMAL MODE.
> > >
> > > Next, I booted the laptop in Normal mode and the Desktop in SafeMode.
This
> > also
> > > worked!
> > >
> > > Next, I booted the laptop in SafeMode and the Desktop in normal mode
and
> > it DID
> > > NOT WORK (that is the file on the desktop could not be deleted with
the
> > error
> > > message "another person or program is using the file ......"
> > >
> > > So, something on the desktop is causing this problem and the something
is
> > what
> > > runs in normal mode versus Safe Mode. Any ideas?
> > >
> > > Thanks, Fred
> > >
> > >
> > > americantechie wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hello Fred,
> > > >
> > > > Very nice... I forget about sysinternals, very groovy tools baby
*in
> > best
> > > > Austin Powers voice* unfortunately as you say this does not fix the
> > problem
> > > > but does shed some light on it. By the way, the error message is
> > actually a
> > > > great help also which you just now posted... thank you ;) Ok so it
> > appears
> > > > the error is as it says... something is using it. Those dang
handles...
> > try
> > > > my suggestions and if you fix the problem please post...
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > > <Fred@anonymous.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:40442465.F0B9C302@global2000.net...
> > > > > Hello John,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for your thoughts and ideas. I appreciate it very much,
just
> > > > knowing
> > > > > someone is willing to give this some thought and offer ideas is
> > comforting
> > > > to
> > > > > some extent.
> > > > >
> > > > > One "recommended solution" which works, by the way is using
> > SysInternals
> > > > Process
> > > > > Viewer. I got onto that from a number of the networking problem
pages
> > all
> > > > around
> > > > > the web. Basically that program shows "handles" that are on the
> > problem
> > > > files or
> > > > > folders.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's a URL about it:
> > > > > MSKB Article 242131
> > > > > http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;242131
> > > > >
> > > > > That page has the URL for the SysInternals Process Viewer
> > > > > http://www.sysinternals.com/ntw2k/freeware/procexp.shtml
> > > > >
> > > > > When I put the text file into the shared folder on the desktop, a
> > "find"
> > > > on
> > > > > Process Viewer shows nothing (NO HANDLES).
> > > > >
> > > > > As soon as I drag that file or whatever (access it from the
laptop)
> > then
> > > > the
> > > > > handles show up. I find that at least three handles and usually
five
> > to
> > > > ten show
> > > > > up in Process Viewer. I can manually delete each "handle" using
> > Process
> > > > Viewer
> > > > > and after they are gone, I can go to windows explorer and delete
the
> > file.
> > > > Both
> > > > > PC's are on and the network is running while this happens.
> > > > >
> > > > > I just don't understand handles. I know that Process viewer can
show
> > them
> > > > and on
> > > > > my desktop they ALL appear under SYSTEM. I've renamed "My
Computer" to
> > > > System,
> > > > > so I'm not sure but perhaps it would be My Computer on another
> > machine.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would love to know what the heck produces those handles as they
are
> > the
> > > > key to
> > > > > this crazy situation. It appears that the handles are the things
> > causing
> > > > the
> > > > > error "Cannot delete, another person or program is using the
> > file....."
> > > > Now,
> > > > > what the heck generates/causes the handles???
> > > > >
> > > > > I will try the SafeMode with networking and will also try to
disable
> > my
> > > > NIC -
> > > > > I'll just disable the NIC in Network Connections. I will post back
> > with
> > > > results
> > > > > on that Tuesday. The other items seem to be really difficult and
I'm
> > > > reluctant
> > > > > to go that way at least for now.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks again, John, and take care,
> > > > >
> > > > > Fred
> > > > >
> > > > > americantechie wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hello Mei Chan,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is certainly a tricky one, I have not seen this exact
problem
> > and I
> > > > > > have fixed many home networks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do you get any errors when attempting to access the file? Does
it
> > > > timeout?
> > > > > > What exactly happens?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It would be interesting to see if this problem occurs if any
other
> > > > computer
> > > > > > besides your laptop does this to the desktop however this might
be
> > > > difficult
> > > > > > to test if you only have two computers. You could perhaps try a
VPN
> > > > > > connection from a friends computer... not sure if this would be
a
> > good
> > > > test
> > > > > > but I'm just trying to generate ideas. It would really help to
be
> > able
> > > > to
> > > > > > isolate which computer is causing the problem, or maybe it could
be
> > a
> > > > > > combination of problems on both. Along the same lines you
could
> > also
> > > > try
> > > > > > to access a different computer than your desktop with the
laptop,
> > maybe
> > > > a
> > > > > > friend's computer.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Because this problem happens on shared folders anywhere, and on
a
> > FAT32
> > > > > > partition I think we could rule out permissions problems. It
would
> > also
> > > > > > rule out seem to rule out permissions problems due to the non
> > consistent
> > > > > > behavior when accessing the file from the desktop (you should
simply
> > be
> > > > able
> > > > > > to access the file or not). There still could be something
funky
> > with
> > > > > > permissions but it is hard to say and this can be a tricky area.
At
> > > > this
> > > > > > point I would say converting NTFS to FAT32 would be pointless as
you
> > > > > > allready have a FAT32 partition to test this on.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You could try to put both computers into safemode with
networking
> > > > support
> > > > > > and try again, this will disable any third party software that
might
> > be
> > > > > > invisibly mucking with your network. This is always a simple
test
> > that
> > > > > > Microsoft support will typically take you through if they have
no
> > idea
> > > > what
> > > > > > is going on.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > After accessing the desktop with the laptop, actually disable
the
> > NIC or
> > > > > > whatever network adaptor you are using so it kills the network
(do
> > this
> > > > on
> > > > > > the desktop) and then try to access the file (again... locally
from
> > the
> > > > > > desktop). You mentioned you removed the laptop from the network
but
> > > > again I
> > > > > > am more interested in seeing the network adaptor disabled on the
> > desktop
> > > > > > machine.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You could try completely disabling TCP/IP, then install Netbeui
> > and/or
> > > > > > IPX/SPX and try again...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Some funky settings especially permissions could be user
specific,
> > each
> > > > user
> > > > > > has his own section in the registry that could get mucked up.
On
> > the
> > > > > > desktop make a new user, log into the desktop with the new user,
run
> > the
> > > > > > test again from start to finish. This is another trick
Microsoft
> > > > support
> > > > > > will sometimes try if nothing else works, once in a while it
> > actually
> > > > works
> > > > > > and it is a quick test.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Related links...
> > > > > > http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;301041
(how
> > to
> > > > > > install netbeui on windows xp)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We could also discuss worst case scenarios/last ditch efforts...
> > > > > > You mentioned you have more than one partition on the desktop...
you
> > > > could
> > > > > > install XP to this partition if you have enough space left over
> > which
> > > > would
> > > > > > setup a dual boot situation. You could boot into the second
> > > > installation
> > > > > > and test out the problem. Here you will have a completely clean
> > > > > > installation and if the problem persists then the laptop is to
> > blame.
> > > > You
> > > > > > could do this with either the laptop or the desktop. Removing
the
> > > > second
> > > > > > installation after the test is real simple, just delete the XP
OS
> > > > folders
> > > > > > and remove the second entry from the boot.ini and you are back
to
> > > > normal.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have given you alot to chew on so I will stop here. If it
seems
> > like
> > > > I am
> > > > > > grasping for straws that is because I am ;) If nothing else
> > hopefully
> > > > I
> > > > > > have given you or someone else some ideas of things to try.
> > Sometimes
> > > > you
> > > > > > just have to test, test, test to uncover that morsel of
information
> > that
> > > > > > throws the problem into full light.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Good Luck!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > John
> > > > > >
> > > > > > <Fred @anonymous.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > news:40440C0F.B6D5708@global2000.net...
> > > > > > > americantechie,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Thanks for your interest, I'll reply in sections divided by
******
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Fred
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > americantechie wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hello Mei Chan,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have no clue whats going on here but I thought I would
take a
> > stab
> > > > at
> > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > Right offhand I would think the following is happening...
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1. The file is flagged as non accessible because it is in
> > use???
> > > > > > > > 2. The file is temporarily flagged as read only???
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Quote:
> > > > > > > > "If I put a file in the DESKTOP's Shared folder AND access
it
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > LAPTOP, then I cannot delete the desktop file at all unless
I
> > reboot
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > desktop."
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Question:
> > > > > > > > You are able to delete the file after rebooting the desktop
from
> > > > which
> > > > > > > > computer? The laptop or the desktop or both? I am assuming
it
> > > > would be
> > > > > > > > from the desktop only.
> > > > > > > > **************
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I can delete the file from the desktop (where I've always
wanted
> > > > to) -
> > > > > > If I
> > > > > > > > access it at all from the laptop, it cannot be deleted. The
> > access
> > > > by
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > laptop triggers this reaction on the desktop.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ******************
> > > > > > > There is not a lot of info to go with here but we can gather
more
> > > > > > information by
> > > > > > > running some tests and asking more questions...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Where is the file in question being shared?
> > > > > > > > Does this happen with any shared file?
> > > > > > > > Has this ever worked correctly?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > *************
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It doesn't matter. I started with the Documents folder (This
is
> > the
> > > > Shared
> > > > > > > Documents folder on my desktop but it is named Documents). I
then
> > made
> > > > a
> > > > > > folder
> > > > > > > on my D drive (second partition (Fat32) same result. Now I'm
using
> > a
> > > > > > folder
> > > > > > > called A-Share on the C- drive and still the same.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes this happens with all files. I'm using a simple text file
for
> > all
> > > > my
> > > > > > testing
> > > > > > > but my virus signatures, some DB data files, JPEG images, etc.
ALL
> > of
> > > > them
> > > > > > > cannot be edited, renamed, or deleted UNTIL I reboot. I can
> > rename,
> > > > edit,
> > > > > > > delete, etc AFTER reboot but BEFORE any access again by the
> > laptop.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Has not worked correctly on the desktop. It does work
correctly
> > doing
> > > > > > everything
> > > > > > > on the laptop. By that I mean I can place a file, or folder,
into
> > the
> > > > > > laptop
> > > > > > > share and access it from the desktop. Then AFTER access by the
> > > > desktop, I
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > rename, edit, delete from EITHER the laptop OR the Desktop.
> > > > > > > ****************
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You might try sharing a file in a folder in a different
location
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > > hard
> > > > > > > > drive such as in the root of the C: drive, I would
deffinately
> > try
> > > > this
> > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > the shared folder is in your "my documents" folder. If the
> > problem
> > > > goes
> > > > > > > > away when you share at a different location then the problem
may
> > be
> > > > with
> > > > > > > > permissions on the shared folder.
> > > > > > > > *******
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is answered in comments above- tried multiple folders on
two
> > > > > > partitions.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > *****************
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As an alternative to rebooting the computer to delete the
> > file...
> > > > try
> > > > > > > > unplugging the desktop from the network or disable the
network
> > > > adaptor
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > then try deleting the file. If this works then for some
reason
> > the
> > > > > > other
> > > > > > > > computer is tying up the file.
> > > > > > > > ******************
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Did that too, disconnecting the laptop after access makes no
> > > > difference at
> > > > > > all
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ***************
> > > > > > > > Other notes:
> > > > > > > > Changing the file system should remove the possibility of a
> > > > permissions
> > > > > > > > problem however I am unaware of any method to change NTFS to
> > FAT32
> > > > and
> > > > > > if
> > > > > > > > there is a way I would only do this as a very last resort as
> > there
> > > > is
> > > > > > risk
> > > > > > > > of data loss and it may not work anyways.
> > > > > > > > ***********
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've read here in this NG that Partition Magic can do it
although
> > it
> > > > is
> > > > > > risky. I
> > > > > > > would create an image file before attempting this, needless to
> > say.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ************
> > > > > > > > You are correct, this is a difficult item to troubleshoot
over a
> > > > > > newsgroup
> > > > > > > > as are most networking problems.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Good Luck!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > John
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > <Fred @anonymous.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > news:4043D07D.88E1B34C@global2000.net...
> > > > > > > > > Hello Mei Chan,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks for your interest.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Using the laptop, I just tried to open the text file in
the
> > > > desktop
> > > > > > share
> > > > > > > > > folder and it opens but I can't edit the text or anything.
I
> > can
> > > > copy
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > file
> > > > > > > > > which is really what I wanted to do.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I cannot delete the files (on the desktop) from either the
> > laptop
> > > > or
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > desktop.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Once again, if I do it the other way (file in laptop
share)
> > then I
> > > > can
> > > > > > > > delete,
> > > > > > > > > edit, whatever.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Thanks and hope this helps.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Fred
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "Mei Chan [MSFT]" wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hi Fred,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > From your Laptop, can you create / edit your files on
your
> > > > Desktop's
> > > > > > > > share?
> > > > > > > > > > Is the problem specific with only deleting the files on
the
> > > > share?
> > > > > > Can
> > > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > > delete your files from local machine itself (Desktop)?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Mei
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > ----------
> > > > > > > > > > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and
> > confers
> > > > no
> > > > > > > > rights.
> > > > > > > > > > ----------
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > <Fred@anonymous.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > > news:4043B390.5CE90886@global2000.net...
> > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mei Chan,
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I have posted my problem at least four times now with
> > little
> > > > or no
> > > > > > > > > > > response on this newsgroup which is frustrating to say
the
> > > > least.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I have WinXP Home on a Desktop and Laptop. They are
> > networked
> > > > > > using a
> > > > > > > > > > > router and wireless card. Internet works fine.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I can put a file in the LAPTOP's Shared folder and
access
> > it
> > > > from
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > DESKTOP - I can delete the laptop file from either PC.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > If I put a file in the DESKTOP's Shared folder AND
access
> > it
> > > > from
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > LAPTOP, then I cannot delete the desktop file at all
> > unless I
> > > > > > reboot
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > desktop. It appears that the access by the laptop
changes
> > > > > > something
> > > > > > > > > > > drastically. I've tried shutting down explorer, no
> > success - I
> > > > > > have to
> > > > > > > > > > > re-boot to delete the desktop files.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > SInce no one has offered a clue about this then I must
> > have a
> > > > real
> > > > > > > > > > > unique problem. What if I try to convert my current
NTFS
> > file
> > > > > > system
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > FAT32? If this has been caused by "permissions" etc.
under
> > > > NTFS,
> > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > > go away if I can convert to FAT32 using Partition
Magic?
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Any reply will be sincerely appreciated.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, Fred
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
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