Re: Mei Chan [MSFT]
Fred_at_anonymous.com
Date: 03/03/04
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Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2004 00:22:23 -0500
Hi John,
Thanks for getting back to me on this one. I wanted to also let you know that I
also disabled the NIC connection and the problem was still there. Just for your
info as that was another thing you mentioned.
I've already tried unchecking everything in the "startup" tab and tested with no
luck there.
I will go the processes route tomorrow and again will report back here. I sure
hope we find what the heck is going on. I've also created another thread asking
for ideas about what folks think about the difference between safemode and
normal mode could be as I wasn't sure if you were able to get back to me on this
thread. No big deal, that can't hurt, I suppose.
Your comments about the firewall have me wondering. Before I got this far, I
read numerous posts that one should remove the firewall. I have Zone Alarm (free
version - just updated actually) and before the update I removed it and still
had the problem. Now I realize that it might be more than just ZA and could be a
combination of programs.
Let me get this clear, do you mean totally uninstall it or just uncheck the
"load at startup" option in ZA. I've seen other posts that say you should also
delete all the files in the c:\windows\internet logs folder - any comments on
that?
Lastly, my systems are clean, I regularly run Adaware and Spybot, and use eTrust
EZAV and update daily manually. I even ran a virus check on my C drive again
this afternoon for the hell of it.
Thanks again, John, and I hope I have good news tomorrow.
Fred
americantechie wrote:
> Hello Fred,
>
> Excellent troubleshooting, it seems we are getting somewhere! When you run
> into a tricky problem the only way you can get to a resolution is to test,
> test, test. This process is a textbook case of what Microsoft support calls
> SAFEMODE/CLEANBOOT troubleshooting or and can be used for most problems .
> This is basically a process of elimation and we will continue this process
> from here. You started out in safemode w/ networking which disables most
> hardware and software except that which is required to boot the computer and
> get basic network functionality. We have isolated the problem computer
> (desktop) and know that it also works when in a state of bare bones
> functionality. We also know the problem lies in either hardware or software
> that was disabled but does not appear to be a Windows "system" error such as
> corruption because the problem went away in safemode. We will now focus our
> attention on everything that safemode has disabled. The next step is the
> "cleanboot" part of the process. The tool we will use from here is MSCONFIG
> (start -> run -> msconfig) which allows us to disable services and software
> which loads on startup. Note that MSCONFIG does not have the ability to
> disable hardware as safemode did. Hardware could still be a cause of the
> problem however in this situation it is unlikely. If MSCONFIG does not lead
> to a resolution then we can revisit this possibility. In the MSCONFIG
> tool you will see tabs across the top, we are only concerned about the last
> two which are services and startup. The services tab generally refers to
> programs that actively run in the background such as Anti-Virus software and
> are non user specific. On this tab make sure you click "hide all microsoft
> services". This option makes no physical changes and leaves a list that
> only contains third party services. We do this because it is unlikely that
> a Microsoft service is causing the problem and some services are better left
> alone if possible. An example is the system restore service which will kill
> all of your old restore points when stopped. You are left with a much
> smaller and easier to manage list, uncheck everything and it might even be a
> good idea to keep a log as you go as things can change. Next click on the
> startup tab and uncheck everything. Click OK and you will then be prompted
> to reboot, click OK to reboot. When the computer comes back up test the
> problem again, if the problem does not appear then we know the culprit lies
> in one of the items that we unchecked in msconfig. Again... we are using a
> process of elimination, you can now go back to MSCONFIG and check one item
> that we had unchecked earlier, click OK, reboot, test again, rinse, repeat.
> Keep doing this until the problem comes back, you will then look at your log
> to find the last item that was checked and you have found the cause. Put
> the computer back to normal, reboot, remove the offending software. As a
> variation of the above step you can check two items at a time, or three, or
> you can do a "divide and conquer" approach where you check half of the
> items, make sure you keep a good log. I have posted a small technical
> handbook so I will stop here, again I have given you lots to chew on so have
> fun! Please post your results.
>
> Extra notes:
> I would guess that firewalls are one of the biggest call generators to MS
> networking support, if you have third party firewall software installed,
> REMOVE IT. In some cases even disabling a firewall may not fix a problem
> that was caused by the firewall.
>
> When rechecking disabled items in msconfig it does not matter if you start
> with services or startup as they are all suspects to be treated equally.
> You may see things in one of these tabs that are more obvious as a possible
> suspect than others such as firewalls in this case. Make sure you keep a
> log. Some programs may have enties in both services AND startup, the most
> important area being services.
>
> Before doing any of the above make sure you have disabled any Firewall
> software you may have loaded because
>
> Have problems browsing? Keep your computer free of spyware by installing,
> UPDATING, then scanning with software such as Adaware. Like antivirus
> software this is only effective if you update the program. This is another
> big generator of networking calls to microsoft however it is unlikely to be
> causing problems in this case.
>
> Good luck!
>
> John
>
> <Fred@anonymous.com> wrote in message
> news:40452ED3.A17805E5@global2000.net...
> > Hello John and ??
> >
> > Well I did some troubleshooting and got mixed results.
> >
> > First of all, I booted both the desktop AND laptop in SAFE MODE with
> Networking.
> > The good news is everything WORKED! I was able to place a file in a
> desktop
> > share folder, then access it using the laptop, then delete the file on the
> > desktop. THIS DOES NOT WORK IN NORMAL MODE.
> >
> > Next, I booted the laptop in Normal mode and the Desktop in SafeMode. This
> also
> > worked!
> >
> > Next, I booted the laptop in SafeMode and the Desktop in normal mode and
> it DID
> > NOT WORK (that is the file on the desktop could not be deleted with the
> error
> > message "another person or program is using the file ......"
> >
> > So, something on the desktop is causing this problem and the something is
> what
> > runs in normal mode versus Safe Mode. Any ideas?
> >
> > Thanks, Fred
> >
> >
> > americantechie wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Fred,
> > >
> > > Very nice... I forget about sysinternals, very groovy tools baby *in
> best
> > > Austin Powers voice* unfortunately as you say this does not fix the
> problem
> > > but does shed some light on it. By the way, the error message is
> actually a
> > > great help also which you just now posted... thank you ;) Ok so it
> appears
> > > the error is as it says... something is using it. Those dang handles...
> try
> > > my suggestions and if you fix the problem please post...
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > <Fred@anonymous.com> wrote in message
> > > news:40442465.F0B9C302@global2000.net...
> > > > Hello John,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for your thoughts and ideas. I appreciate it very much, just
> > > knowing
> > > > someone is willing to give this some thought and offer ideas is
> comforting
> > > to
> > > > some extent.
> > > >
> > > > One "recommended solution" which works, by the way is using
> SysInternals
> > > Process
> > > > Viewer. I got onto that from a number of the networking problem pages
> all
> > > around
> > > > the web. Basically that program shows "handles" that are on the
> problem
> > > files or
> > > > folders.
> > > >
> > > > Here's a URL about it:
> > > > MSKB Article 242131
> > > > http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;242131
> > > >
> > > > That page has the URL for the SysInternals Process Viewer
> > > > http://www.sysinternals.com/ntw2k/freeware/procexp.shtml
> > > >
> > > > When I put the text file into the shared folder on the desktop, a
> "find"
> > > on
> > > > Process Viewer shows nothing (NO HANDLES).
> > > >
> > > > As soon as I drag that file or whatever (access it from the laptop)
> then
> > > the
> > > > handles show up. I find that at least three handles and usually five
> to
> > > ten show
> > > > up in Process Viewer. I can manually delete each "handle" using
> Process
> > > Viewer
> > > > and after they are gone, I can go to windows explorer and delete the
> file.
> > > Both
> > > > PC's are on and the network is running while this happens.
> > > >
> > > > I just don't understand handles. I know that Process viewer can show
> them
> > > and on
> > > > my desktop they ALL appear under SYSTEM. I've renamed "My Computer" to
> > > System,
> > > > so I'm not sure but perhaps it would be My Computer on another
> machine.
> > > >
> > > > I would love to know what the heck produces those handles as they are
> the
> > > key to
> > > > this crazy situation. It appears that the handles are the things
> causing
> > > the
> > > > error "Cannot delete, another person or program is using the
> file....."
> > > Now,
> > > > what the heck generates/causes the handles???
> > > >
> > > > I will try the SafeMode with networking and will also try to disable
> my
> > > NIC -
> > > > I'll just disable the NIC in Network Connections. I will post back
> with
> > > results
> > > > on that Tuesday. The other items seem to be really difficult and I'm
> > > reluctant
> > > > to go that way at least for now.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks again, John, and take care,
> > > >
> > > > Fred
> > > >
> > > > americantechie wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hello Mei Chan,
> > > > >
> > > > > This is certainly a tricky one, I have not seen this exact problem
> and I
> > > > > have fixed many home networks.
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you get any errors when attempting to access the file? Does it
> > > timeout?
> > > > > What exactly happens?
> > > > >
> > > > > It would be interesting to see if this problem occurs if any other
> > > computer
> > > > > besides your laptop does this to the desktop however this might be
> > > difficult
> > > > > to test if you only have two computers. You could perhaps try a VPN
> > > > > connection from a friends computer... not sure if this would be a
> good
> > > test
> > > > > but I'm just trying to generate ideas. It would really help to be
> able
> > > to
> > > > > isolate which computer is causing the problem, or maybe it could be
> a
> > > > > combination of problems on both. Along the same lines you could
> also
> > > try
> > > > > to access a different computer than your desktop with the laptop,
> maybe
> > > a
> > > > > friend's computer.
> > > > >
> > > > > Because this problem happens on shared folders anywhere, and on a
> FAT32
> > > > > partition I think we could rule out permissions problems. It would
> also
> > > > > rule out seem to rule out permissions problems due to the non
> consistent
> > > > > behavior when accessing the file from the desktop (you should simply
> be
> > > able
> > > > > to access the file or not). There still could be something funky
> with
> > > > > permissions but it is hard to say and this can be a tricky area. At
> > > this
> > > > > point I would say converting NTFS to FAT32 would be pointless as you
> > > > > allready have a FAT32 partition to test this on.
> > > > >
> > > > > You could try to put both computers into safemode with networking
> > > support
> > > > > and try again, this will disable any third party software that might
> be
> > > > > invisibly mucking with your network. This is always a simple test
> that
> > > > > Microsoft support will typically take you through if they have no
> idea
> > > what
> > > > > is going on.
> > > > >
> > > > > After accessing the desktop with the laptop, actually disable the
> NIC or
> > > > > whatever network adaptor you are using so it kills the network (do
> this
> > > on
> > > > > the desktop) and then try to access the file (again... locally from
> the
> > > > > desktop). You mentioned you removed the laptop from the network but
> > > again I
> > > > > am more interested in seeing the network adaptor disabled on the
> desktop
> > > > > machine.
> > > > >
> > > > > You could try completely disabling TCP/IP, then install Netbeui
> and/or
> > > > > IPX/SPX and try again...
> > > > >
> > > > > Some funky settings especially permissions could be user specific,
> each
> > > user
> > > > > has his own section in the registry that could get mucked up. On
> the
> > > > > desktop make a new user, log into the desktop with the new user, run
> the
> > > > > test again from start to finish. This is another trick Microsoft
> > > support
> > > > > will sometimes try if nothing else works, once in a while it
> actually
> > > works
> > > > > and it is a quick test.
> > > > >
> > > > > Related links...
> > > > > http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;301041 (how
> to
> > > > > install netbeui on windows xp)
> > > > >
> > > > > We could also discuss worst case scenarios/last ditch efforts...
> > > > > You mentioned you have more than one partition on the desktop... you
> > > could
> > > > > install XP to this partition if you have enough space left over
> which
> > > would
> > > > > setup a dual boot situation. You could boot into the second
> > > installation
> > > > > and test out the problem. Here you will have a completely clean
> > > > > installation and if the problem persists then the laptop is to
> blame.
> > > You
> > > > > could do this with either the laptop or the desktop. Removing the
> > > second
> > > > > installation after the test is real simple, just delete the XP OS
> > > folders
> > > > > and remove the second entry from the boot.ini and you are back to
> > > normal.
> > > > >
> > > > > I have given you alot to chew on so I will stop here. If it seems
> like
> > > I am
> > > > > grasping for straws that is because I am ;) If nothing else
> hopefully
> > > I
> > > > > have given you or someone else some ideas of things to try.
> Sometimes
> > > you
> > > > > just have to test, test, test to uncover that morsel of information
> that
> > > > > throws the problem into full light.
> > > > >
> > > > > Good Luck!
> > > > >
> > > > > John
> > > > >
> > > > > <Fred @anonymous.com> wrote in message
> > > > > news:40440C0F.B6D5708@global2000.net...
> > > > > > americantechie,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for your interest, I'll reply in sections divided by ******
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Fred
> > > > > >
> > > > > > americantechie wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hello Mei Chan,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I have no clue whats going on here but I thought I would take a
> stab
> > > at
> > > > > it.
> > > > > > > Right offhand I would think the following is happening...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1. The file is flagged as non accessible because it is in
> use???
> > > > > > > 2. The file is temporarily flagged as read only???
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Quote:
> > > > > > > "If I put a file in the DESKTOP's Shared folder AND access it
> from
> > > the
> > > > > > > LAPTOP, then I cannot delete the desktop file at all unless I
> reboot
> > > the
> > > > > > > desktop."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Question:
> > > > > > > You are able to delete the file after rebooting the desktop from
> > > which
> > > > > > > computer? The laptop or the desktop or both? I am assuming it
> > > would be
> > > > > > > from the desktop only.
> > > > > > > **************
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I can delete the file from the desktop (where I've always wanted
> > > to) -
> > > > > If I
> > > > > > > access it at all from the laptop, it cannot be deleted. The
> access
> > > by
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > laptop triggers this reaction on the desktop.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ******************
> > > > > > There is not a lot of info to go with here but we can gather more
> > > > > information by
> > > > > > running some tests and asking more questions...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Where is the file in question being shared?
> > > > > > > Does this happen with any shared file?
> > > > > > > Has this ever worked correctly?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > *************
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It doesn't matter. I started with the Documents folder (This is
> the
> > > Shared
> > > > > > Documents folder on my desktop but it is named Documents). I then
> made
> > > a
> > > > > folder
> > > > > > on my D drive (second partition (Fat32) same result. Now I'm using
> a
> > > > > folder
> > > > > > called A-Share on the C- drive and still the same.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes this happens with all files. I'm using a simple text file for
> all
> > > my
> > > > > testing
> > > > > > but my virus signatures, some DB data files, JPEG images, etc. ALL
> of
> > > them
> > > > > > cannot be edited, renamed, or deleted UNTIL I reboot. I can
> rename,
> > > edit,
> > > > > > delete, etc AFTER reboot but BEFORE any access again by the
> laptop.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Has not worked correctly on the desktop. It does work correctly
> doing
> > > > > everything
> > > > > > on the laptop. By that I mean I can place a file, or folder, into
> the
> > > > > laptop
> > > > > > share and access it from the desktop. Then AFTER access by the
> > > desktop, I
> > > > > can
> > > > > > rename, edit, delete from EITHER the laptop OR the Desktop.
> > > > > > ****************
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > You might try sharing a file in a folder in a different location
> of
> > > the
> > > > > hard
> > > > > > > drive such as in the root of the C: drive, I would deffinately
> try
> > > this
> > > > > if
> > > > > > > the shared folder is in your "my documents" folder. If the
> problem
> > > goes
> > > > > > > away when you share at a different location then the problem may
> be
> > > with
> > > > > > > permissions on the shared folder.
> > > > > > > *******
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is answered in comments above- tried multiple folders on two
> > > > > partitions.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > *****************
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > As an alternative to rebooting the computer to delete the
> file...
> > > try
> > > > > > > unplugging the desktop from the network or disable the network
> > > adaptor
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > then try deleting the file. If this works then for some reason
> the
> > > > > other
> > > > > > > computer is tying up the file.
> > > > > > > ******************
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Did that too, disconnecting the laptop after access makes no
> > > difference at
> > > > > all
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > ***************
> > > > > > > Other notes:
> > > > > > > Changing the file system should remove the possibility of a
> > > permissions
> > > > > > > problem however I am unaware of any method to change NTFS to
> FAT32
> > > and
> > > > > if
> > > > > > > there is a way I would only do this as a very last resort as
> there
> > > is
> > > > > risk
> > > > > > > of data loss and it may not work anyways.
> > > > > > > ***********
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've read here in this NG that Partition Magic can do it although
> it
> > > is
> > > > > risky. I
> > > > > > would create an image file before attempting this, needless to
> say.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > ************
> > > > > > > You are correct, this is a difficult item to troubleshoot over a
> > > > > newsgroup
> > > > > > > as are most networking problems.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Good Luck!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > John
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > <Fred @anonymous.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > news:4043D07D.88E1B34C@global2000.net...
> > > > > > > > Hello Mei Chan,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks for your interest.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Using the laptop, I just tried to open the text file in the
> > > desktop
> > > > > share
> > > > > > > > folder and it opens but I can't edit the text or anything. I
> can
> > > copy
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > file
> > > > > > > > which is really what I wanted to do.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I cannot delete the files (on the desktop) from either the
> laptop
> > > or
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > desktop.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Once again, if I do it the other way (file in laptop share)
> then I
> > > can
> > > > > > > delete,
> > > > > > > > edit, whatever.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Thanks and hope this helps.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Fred
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "Mei Chan [MSFT]" wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi Fred,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From your Laptop, can you create / edit your files on your
> > > Desktop's
> > > > > > > share?
> > > > > > > > > Is the problem specific with only deleting the files on the
> > > share?
> > > > > Can
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > > > delete your files from local machine itself (Desktop)?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Mei
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ----------
> > > > > > > > > This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and
> confers
> > > no
> > > > > > > rights.
> > > > > > > > > ----------
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > <Fred@anonymous.com> wrote in message
> > > > > > > > > news:4043B390.5CE90886@global2000.net...
> > > > > > > > > > Hi Mei Chan,
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have posted my problem at least four times now with
> little
> > > or no
> > > > > > > > > > response on this newsgroup which is frustrating to say the
> > > least.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I have WinXP Home on a Desktop and Laptop. They are
> networked
> > > > > using a
> > > > > > > > > > router and wireless card. Internet works fine.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I can put a file in the LAPTOP's Shared folder and access
> it
> > > from
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > DESKTOP - I can delete the laptop file from either PC.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > If I put a file in the DESKTOP's Shared folder AND access
> it
> > > from
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > LAPTOP, then I cannot delete the desktop file at all
> unless I
> > > > > reboot
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > desktop. It appears that the access by the laptop changes
> > > > > something
> > > > > > > > > > drastically. I've tried shutting down explorer, no
> success - I
> > > > > have to
> > > > > > > > > > re-boot to delete the desktop files.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > SInce no one has offered a clue about this then I must
> have a
> > > real
> > > > > > > > > > unique problem. What if I try to convert my current NTFS
> file
> > > > > system
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > FAT32? If this has been caused by "permissions" etc. under
> > > NTFS,
> > > > > will
> > > > > > > it
> > > > > > > > > > go away if I can convert to FAT32 using Partition Magic?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Any reply will be sincerely appreciated.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks, Fred
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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