Re: Fuzzy Still Pictures

Thanks Dean and Rehan for the good and open info...

I've updated the Problem Solving > Video Issues page of my website to add a
new section about ''Visual Quality", using selected info from this thread.
--
PapaJohn

Movie Maker 2 and Photo Story 3 website - http://www.papajohn.org
tips and tricks: http://www.simplydv.co.uk/simplyBB/viewtopic.php?t=4693
Online Newsletters: http://www.windowsmoviemakers.net/PapaJohn/Index.aspx



"Dean Rowe [MS]" <deanro@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:eZU5E9AoFHA.320@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> 1. Yes that's correct. If you're targeting a higher resolution flat panel
> then I would use WMV
>
> 2. The filter is applied before the DV-AVI encoder.
>
> 3. Your concerns are valid. Yes, we always assume an image has a 1:1 pixel
> aspect ratio, so whether you add a 640x480 image or a 720x480 image there
> is going to be some resizing going on. The only way to get around this is
> to render the image to a video file first, like I described in my blog
> where you can use the Windows Media Encoder to encoder the image to a
> 720x480 WMV file.
>
> Regards
> Dean.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rehan
> Posted At: Friday, August 12, 2005 7:22 PM
> Posted To: microsoft.public.windowsxp.moviemaker
> Conversation: Fuzzy Still Pictures
> Subject: Re: Fuzzy Still Pictures
>
>
> Hi Dean
>
> A few questions:
>
> 1. As Papajohn asked, does this confirm that DV AVI is a poorer choice for
> flat panel TVs (than WMVs)?
>
> 2. Is the filter applied before the encoder (for DV AVI) kicks in or is it
> done during the encoding?
>
> 3. Can you also confirm (or deny) my concerns for quality loss arising
> purely because of non-square pixel encoding (i.e. even if the filter is
> removed). As I asked on your blog post, I suspect that due to non-square
> pixel resampling step required to fit a 4:3 picture into 720x480 frame,
> the
> picture quality will always be less than what is possible for 1-to-1
> mapping
> achievable when rendering to a 640x480 frame.
>
> Regards.
>
> --
> Rehan
> MS MVP -- Digital Media
> www.rehanfx.org - get transitions and effects for Windows Movie Maker
>
>
>
> "Dean Rowe [MS]" <deanro@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:ufp2p$3nFHA.3608@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Wow, looks like I've missed an interesting thread :-)
>>
>> Actually there are a couple of issues with saving images to DV-AVI vs.
>> WMV
>> in MovieMaker.
>>
>> Firstly the WMV encoder typically just a does a better job of encoding
>> the
>> image at the profile you're using vs. DV-AVI. However that is not as
>> significant as the second issue.
>>
>> When we save to DV-AVI we're assuming that you're ultimately targeting
>> playback on a regular television as opposed to a computer monitor.
>> Consequently when we're saving to DV-AVI we actually put a filter in the
>> graph that ensures all colors are NTSC safe and it also slightly blurs
>> the
>> image. This is deliberate so that the image doesn't flicker so much on a
>> regular TV. Of course this makes it look worse when you're looking at the
>> result on a computer display, which is typically of a higher quality than
>> a TV.
>>
>> However with more and more flatpanels and the like being sold, most TV's
>> today are of a much better quality than the TV's of yesteryear, so the
>> filter is becoming less and less necessary. Just as an FYI, I'm pushing
>> to
>> have an option in the next version of MovieMaker so that it can be
>> removed
>> if desired.
>>
>> Regards
>> Dean Rowe
>> Windows Movie Maker Team, Microsoft
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Al Stu - MVP
>> Posted At: Thursday, August 11, 2005 11:09 AM
>> Posted To: microsoft.public.windowsxp.moviemaker
>> Conversation: Fuzzy Still Pictures
>> Subject: Re: Fuzzy Still Pictures
>>
>>
>> Windows Movie Maker's inability to save images in the "DV-AVI (NTSC)"
>> format
>> with the same clarity as "High Quality Video (NTSC)" is a flaw of Windows
>> Movie Maker. It is not due to fundamental nature of DV-AVI or the
>> specifications, or because it has to resample images or alter pixel
>> aspect
>> ratio. It's a flaw with how Windows Movie Maker deals with the image.
>> There is no technical reason images saved in the "DV-AVI (NTSC)" format
>> can't be as clear as when saved in the "High Quality Video (NTSC)"
>> format.
>>
>> And that's where it ends for me.
>>
>>
>> "Rehan" <someone@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:OZ3vdPnnFHA.3408@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> 1) Upsampling does not occur on images with larger pixel foot print,
>>>> say
>>>> 2160x1440. Yet they are still fuzzy if saved as DV-AVI, but clear if
>>>> saved as WMV.
>>>
>>> It does. The first thing Movie Maker does is that it resizes the input
>>> images to the output display size. So when saving as DV AVI an image of
>>> 2160x1440 would be resized to 640x480 as the first step. (see the dshow
>>> graph on dean rowe's blog). The reason it is 640x480 is because that is
>>> the "display size" being the 4:3 ratio. After all the processing in
>>> Movie
>>> Maker, the encoding step resamples this image to 720x480. This second
>>> resampling (upsampling) is where the non-square pixel encoding happens.
>>>
>>>
>>>> 2) Isn't "High Quality Video (NTSC) also 720x480? Yet the image is not
>>>> fuzzy.
>>>
>>> It is !!! Compare it with the render to 640x480 wmv. But it is less than
>>> DV AVI since in WMV encoding you can control sharpness (by specifying it
>>> in the custom profile). I would guess that the profiles you tested with,
>>> use higher sharpness value. Nevertheless it will never match the a
>>> square
>>> pixel encoding profie of size 640x480.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> --
>>> Rehan
>>> MS MVP -- Digital Media
>>> www.rehanfx.org - get transitions and effects for Windows Movie Maker
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Al Stu - MVP" <NOYB@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>> news:%23O2O3khnFHA.3564@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Two problems with that.
>>>>
>>>> 1) Upsampling does not occur on images with larger pixel foot print,
>>>> say
>>>> 2160x1440. Yet they are still fuzzy if saved as DV-AVI, but clear if
>>>> saved as WMV.
>>>>
>>>> 2) Isn't "High Quality Video (NTSC) also 720x480? Yet the image is not
>>>> fuzzy.
>>>>
>>>> So upsampling is obviously not the cause of the fuzziness.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Bob [MVP]" <bob@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>> news:eQqA2XhnFHA.2904@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> The display device that has square or non square pixels, the DV-AVI
>>>>>> file, so far as I can determine, and you have not shown otherwise
>>>>>> thus
>>>>>> far, has neither square nor non square pixels. It just has pixels,
>>>>>> 720
>>>>>> of them by 480 of them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That's correct. So if you import a 640x480 pixel image,
>>>>> the horizontal resolution needs to be upsampled from 640
>>>>> to 720. THAT is where the "fuzzy" artifact comes from.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you save the same image to a 640x480 WMV video, the
>>>>> resolution is preserved. So it looks better on your
>>>>> PC than the DV-AVI video.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> -Bob
>>>>> _______________________________
>>>>> Microsoft MVP
>>>>> Windows XP Media Center Edition
>>>>> http://www.microsoft.com/ehome
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Al Stu - MVP" <NOYB@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>> news:uPWlnShnFHA.2444@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Thanks, though MVP status isn't something new, I've been a MVP for
>>>>>> quite some time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes I've been to all those links, still nothing that points to a
>>>>>> DV-AVI
>>>>>> pixel aspect ratio specification standard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The display device that has square or non square pixels, the DV-AVI
>>>>>> file, so far as I can determine, and you have not shown otherwise
>>>>>> thus
>>>>>> far, has neither square nor non square pixels. It just has pixels,
>>>>>> 720
>>>>>> of them by 480 of them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Rehan" <someone@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:evaIc8fnFHA.3564@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> "Al Stu - MVP" <NOYB@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> First of all congratulations of becoming an MVP. Is this for Digital
>>>>>>> Media?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What I'm getting at is that it is being claimed there is a DV-AVI
>>>>>>>> pixel aspect ratio specification. I have not been able to find
>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>> a specification so have requested source of info the claim is being
>>>>>>>> based on. If you know of such a source it would be much
>>>>>>>> appreciated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Fair enough.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The standard spec is perhaps not available for public viewing free
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> charge (Cost of obtaining a copy from the standards body is like
>>>>>>> half
>>>>>>> a grand). The following URL contains all the details about the spec
>>>>>>> though:
>>>>>>> http://www.adamwilt.com/DV-tech.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can you explain how can a video frame of 4:3 or 16:9 ratio can fit
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the standard fixed size of 720x480 pixels without using non-square
>>>>>>> pixel encoding? This page on MSDN explains how non-square pixel
>>>>>>> encoding works:
>>>>>>> http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/wmencode/htm/preservingthepixelaspectratio.asp
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Btw, Have you read the Dean Rowe blog entry I pointed out before. I
>>>>>>> ask it since you are asking the questions which are covered by him.
>>>>>>> http://blogs.msdn.com/deanro/archive/2005/04/19/409563.aspx
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Rehan
>>>>>>> MS MVP -- Digital Media
>>>>>>> www.rehanfx.org - get transitions and effects for Windows Movie
>>>>>>> Maker
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Al Stu - MVP" <NOYB@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:u0KQ2qenFHA.3312@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> Number of pixels is not pixel aspect ratio though.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What I'm getting at is that it is being claimed there is a DV-AVI
>>>>>>>> pixel aspect ratio specification. I have not been able to find
>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>> a specification so have requested source of info the claim is being
>>>>>>>> based on. If you know of such a source it would be much
>>>>>>>> appreciated.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can you shed any light on the issue of still photos being fuzzy
>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>> save as "DV-AVI (NTSC)" (*.avi) movie, but clear when saved as
>>>>>>>> "High
>>>>>>>> Quality Video (NTSC)" (*wmv) movie?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> TIA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Bob [MVP]" <bob@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:eU2mxPenFHA.860@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> It's the NTSC (or PAL) digital video standard that
>>>>>>>>> specifies a horizontal resolution of 720 pixels
>>>>>>>>> per line -- whether it's compressed using DV or
>>>>>>>>> MPEG-2 encoding.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> -Bob
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________
>>>>>>>>> Microsoft MVP
>>>>>>>>> Windows XP Media Center Edition
>>>>>>>>> http://www.microsoft.com/ehome
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "PapaJohn (MVP)" <PapaJohn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:%23Pb$5CdnFHA.3256@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>> Sorry Al, I was thinking MPEG-2 rather than DV-AVI...
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> PapaJohn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Movie Maker 2 and Photo Story 3 website - http://www.papajohn.org
>>>>>>>>>> tips and tricks:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.simplydv.co.uk/simplyBB/viewtopic.php?t=4693
>>>>>>>>>> Online Newsletters:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.windowsmoviemakers.net/PapaJohn/Index.aspx
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Al Stu" <NOYB@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:uVqJi3cnFHA.3380@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>> And where does it talk about DV-AVI pixel aspect ratio
>>>>>>>>>>> specification?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "PapaJohn (MVP)" <PapaJohn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:%23l%23tfBcnFHA.2180@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>> Here's a link that might help....
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.chiariglione.org/mpeg/standards/mpeg-2/mpeg-2.htm
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> PapaJohn
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Movie Maker 2 and Photo Story 3 website -
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.papajohn.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> tips and tricks:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.simplydv.co.uk/simplyBB/viewtopic.php?t=4693
>>>>>>>>>>>> Online Newsletters:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.windowsmoviemakers.net/PapaJohn/Index.aspx
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Al Stu" <NOYB@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:OMKseHYnFHA.3608@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "DV AVI uses non-square pixels because thats how the standard
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> specified."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you have a source for the above mentioned standard
>>>>>>>>>>>>> specification please?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> TIA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Rehan" <someone@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:%23rWyWWTnFHA.1088@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Al
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you sure about that? Isn't pixel aspect specific to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display device, not the file format? Photos in my DV-AVI
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> movies turn out fine with proper H/V aspect ratio.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DV AVI uses non-square pixels because thats how the standard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specified. This works perfectly for a captured video as that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> also encoded with the same standard. Thus working all the way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in DV AVI makes sense as it keeps the footage in the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pixel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> encoding from start to end.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However for a slideshow made using still images, this isn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case. Movie Maker treats the input still images to always be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> square pixels. So saving a still image in DV AVI format would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> always change the pixel aspect ratio. (note 720x480 is 3:2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> square pixels)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There was a mojor hot discussion on this topic earlier in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> March
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resulting in much bitter arguments unfortunately.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However here is the gist of the discussion covered by Dean
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rowe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in one of his blog entry:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://blogs.msdn.com/deanro/archive/2005/04/19/409563.aspx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rehan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MS MVP -- Digital Media
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.rehanfx.org - get transitions and effects for Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Movie
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Maker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Al Stu" <NOYB@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:uOaHziRnFHA.3312@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Dont use DV AVI since it distorts pixels to non-square
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> size."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you sure about that? Isn't pixel aspect specific to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> display device, not the file format? Photos in my DV-AVI
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> movies turn out fine with proper H/V aspect ratio.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Rehan" <someone@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:%23XBsmVRnFHA.2852@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you want to save the slideshow in higher resolution then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use 1024x768 profile from www.papajohn.org > Saving Movies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Custom WMV profiles.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows Movie Maker resizes the input images to output
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "display" size before internal processing starts. Best
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be to use images of exact same size as the output display
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> size (640x480 or 1024x768). Dont use DV AVI since it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> distorts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pixels to non-square size. Dont apply any effects.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rehan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MS MVP -- Digital Media
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.rehanfx.org - get transitions and effects for Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Movie Maker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Leah525" <Leah525@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> message
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> news:7AA773FA-6AC4-403E-A0BB-E0664D05B46F@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I am trying to make a slide show for my wedding. I have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>scanned in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pictures and the slide show looks clear in preview (i'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're tired of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hearing this) and fuzzy in full screen. I have saved it to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my computer under
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different resolutions, but everytime I play it in Media
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Player, it is still
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fuzzy. It is not so bad when I watch it small in Media
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Player, but when I go
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> full screen, you can't hardly see anything. I am going to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> burn it to a DVD to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> play at the wedding, problem is I have to play it through
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the computer at the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> church. Do you think it will be ok, or does anyone have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggestions?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>


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