Re: Fuzzy Still Pictures

Around and around and around we go.
Where we stop, nobody knows...  ;-)

--
-Bob
_______________________________
Microsoft MVP
Windows XP Media Center Edition
http://www.microsoft.com/ehome


"Rehan" <someone@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:OZ3vdPnnFHA.3408@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
1) Upsampling does not occur on images with larger pixel foot print, say 2160x1440. Yet they are still fuzzy if saved as DV-AVI, but clear if saved as WMV.

It does. The first thing Movie Maker does is that it resizes the input images to the output display size. So when saving as DV AVI an image of 2160x1440 would be resized to 640x480 as the first step. (see the dshow graph on dean rowe's blog). The reason it is 640x480 is because that is the "display size" being the 4:3 ratio. After all the processing in Movie Maker, the encoding step resamples this image to 720x480. This second resampling (upsampling) is where the non-square pixel encoding happens.


2) Isn't "High Quality Video (NTSC) also 720x480? Yet the image is not fuzzy.

It is !!! Compare it with the render to 640x480 wmv. But it is less than DV AVI since in WMV encoding you can control sharpness (by specifying it in the custom profile). I would guess that the profiles you tested with, use higher sharpness value. Nevertheless it will never match the a square pixel encoding profie of size 640x480.


Regards

--
Rehan
MS MVP -- Digital Media
www.rehanfx.org - get transitions and effects for Windows Movie Maker



"Al Stu - MVP" <NOYB@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:%23O2O3khnFHA.3564@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Two problems with that.

1) Upsampling does not occur on images with larger pixel foot print, say 2160x1440. Yet they are still fuzzy if saved as DV-AVI, but clear if saved as WMV.

2) Isn't "High Quality Video (NTSC) also 720x480? Yet the image is not fuzzy.

So upsampling is obviously not the cause of the fuzziness.


"Bob [MVP]" <bob@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:eQqA2XhnFHA.2904@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
The display device that has square or non square pixels, the DV-AVI file, so far as I can determine, and you have not shown otherwise thus far, has neither square nor non square pixels. It just has pixels, 720 of them by 480 of them. 


That's correct.  So if you import a 640x480 pixel image,
the horizontal resolution needs to be upsampled from 640
to 720.  THAT is where the "fuzzy" artifact comes from.

If you save the same image to a 640x480 WMV video, the
resolution is preserved.  So it looks better on your
PC than the DV-AVI video.

--
-Bob
_______________________________
Microsoft MVP
Windows XP Media Center Edition
http://www.microsoft.com/ehome


"Al Stu - MVP" <NOYB@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:uPWlnShnFHA.2444@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Thanks, though MVP status isn't something new, I've been a MVP for quite some time.



Yes I've been to all those links, still nothing that points to a DV-AVI pixel aspect ratio specification standard.



The display device that has square or non square pixels, the DV-AVI file, so far as I can determine, and you have not shown otherwise thus far, has neither square nor non square pixels. It just has pixels, 720 of them by 480 of them.





"Rehan" <someone@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:evaIc8fnFHA.3564@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
"Al Stu - MVP" <NOYB@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message

First of all congratulations of becoming an MVP. Is this for Digital Media?


What I'm getting at is that it is being claimed there is a DV-AVI pixel aspect ratio specification. I have not been able to find such a specification so have requested source of info the claim is being based on. If you know of such a source it would be much appreciated. 

Fair enough.

The standard spec is perhaps not available for public viewing free of charge (Cost of obtaining a copy from the standards body is like half a grand). The following URL contains all the details about the spec though:
http://www.adamwilt.com/DV-tech.html

Can you explain how can a video frame of 4:3 or 16:9 ratio can fit in the standard fixed size of 720x480 pixels without using non-square pixel encoding? This page on MSDN explains how non-square pixel encoding works:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/wmencode/htm/preservingthepixelaspectratio.asp

Btw, Have you read the Dean Rowe blog entry I pointed out before. I ask it since you are asking the questions which are covered by him.
http://blogs.msdn.com/deanro/archive/2005/04/19/409563.aspx



--
Rehan
MS MVP -- Digital Media
www.rehanfx.org - get transitions and effects for Windows Movie Maker



"Al Stu - MVP" <NOYB@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:u0KQ2qenFHA.3312@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Number of pixels is not pixel aspect ratio though.

What I'm getting at is that it is being claimed there is a DV-AVI pixel aspect ratio specification. I have not been able to find such a specification so have requested source of info the claim is being based on. If you know of such a source it would be much appreciated.

Can you shed any light on the issue of still photos being fuzzy when save as "DV-AVI (NTSC)" (*.avi) movie, but clear when saved as "High Quality Video (NTSC)" (*wmv) movie?

TIA


"Bob [MVP]" <bob@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:eU2mxPenFHA.860@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
It's the NTSC (or PAL) digital video standard that
specifies a horizontal resolution of 720 pixels
per line -- whether it's compressed using DV or
MPEG-2 encoding.

--
-Bob
_______________________________
Microsoft MVP
Windows XP Media Center Edition
http://www.microsoft.com/ehome


"PapaJohn (MVP)" <PapaJohn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:%23Pb$5CdnFHA.3256@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Sorry Al, I was thinking MPEG-2 rather than DV-AVI...
--
PapaJohn

Movie Maker 2 and Photo Story 3 website - http://www.papajohn.org
tips and tricks: http://www.simplydv.co.uk/simplyBB/viewtopic.php?t=4693
Online Newsletters: http://www.windowsmoviemakers.net/PapaJohn/Index.aspx

"Al Stu" <NOYB@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:uVqJi3cnFHA.3380@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
And where does it talk about DV-AVI pixel aspect ratio specification?

"PapaJohn (MVP)" <PapaJohn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:%23l%23tfBcnFHA.2180@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Here's a link that might help....

http://www.chiariglione.org/mpeg/standards/mpeg-2/mpeg-2.htm
--
PapaJohn

Movie Maker 2 and Photo Story 3 website - http://www.papajohn.org
tips and tricks: http://www.simplydv.co.uk/simplyBB/viewtopic.php?t=4693
Online Newsletters: http://www.windowsmoviemakers.net/PapaJohn/Index.aspx

"Al Stu" <NOYB@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:OMKseHYnFHA.3608@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"DV AVI uses non-square pixels because thats how the standard is specified."

Do you have a source for the above mentioned standard specification please?

TIA


"Rehan" <someone@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:%23rWyWWTnFHA.1088@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Hi Al

Are you sure about that? Isn't pixel aspect specific to the display device, not the file format? Photos in my DV-AVI movies turn out fine with proper H/V aspect ratio.

DV AVI uses non-square pixels because thats how the standard is specified. This works perfectly for a captured video as that is also encoded with the same standard. Thus working all the way in DV AVI makes sense as it keeps the footage in the same pixel encoding from start to end.

However for a slideshow made using still images, this isn't the case. Movie Maker treats the input still images to always be square pixels. So saving a still image in DV AVI format would always change the pixel aspect ratio. (note 720x480 is 3:2 for square pixels)

There was a mojor hot discussion on this topic earlier in March resulting in much bitter arguments unfortunately.

However here is the gist of the discussion covered by Dean Rowe in one of his blog entry:

http://blogs.msdn.com/deanro/archive/2005/04/19/409563.aspx


--
Rehan
MS MVP -- Digital Media
www.rehanfx.org - get transitions and effects for Windows Movie Maker



"Al Stu" <NOYB@xxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:uOaHziRnFHA.3312@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
"Dont use DV AVI since it distorts pixels to non-square size."

Are you sure about that? Isn't pixel aspect specific to the display device, not the file format? Photos in my DV-AVI movies turn out fine with proper H/V aspect ratio.


"Rehan" <someone@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:%23XBsmVRnFHA.2852@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
If you want to save the slideshow in higher resolution then use 1024x768 profile from www.papajohn.org > Saving Movies > Custom WMV profiles.

Windows Movie Maker resizes the input images to output "display" size before internal processing starts. Best would be to use images of exact same size as the output display size (640x480 or 1024x768). Dont use DV AVI since it distorts pixels to non-square size. Dont apply any effects.


--
Rehan
MS MVP -- Digital Media
www.rehanfx.org - get transitions and effects for Windows Movie Maker



"Leah525" <Leah525@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:7AA773FA-6AC4-403E-A0BB-E0664D05B46F@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I am trying to make a slide show for my wedding. I have scanned in the
pictures and the slide show looks clear in preview (i'm sure you're tired of
hearing this) and fuzzy in full screen. I have saved it to my computer under
different resolutions, but everytime I play it in Media Player, it is still
fuzzy. It is not so bad when I watch it small in Media Player, but when I go
full screen, you can't hardly see anything. I am going to burn it to a DVD to
play at the wedding, problem is I have to play it through the computer at the
church. Do you think it will be ok, or does anyone have any suggestions? 




















.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Fuzzy Still Pictures
    ... Thanks, though MVP status isn't something new, I've been a MVP for quite ... pixel aspect ratio specification standard. ...
    (microsoft.public.windowsxp.moviemaker)
  • Re: Fuzzy Still Pictures
    ... First of all congratulations of becoming an MVP. ... Is this for Digital Media? ... > What I'm getting at is that it is being claimed there is a DV-AVI pixel ... The standard spec is perhaps not available for public viewing free of charge ...
    (microsoft.public.windowsxp.moviemaker)
  • Re: Fuzzy Still Pictures
    ... Quality Video ". ... of argument, assuming a change of pixel aspect ratio, would this not be done ... not shown any evidence of DV-AVI non-square pixel specification. ... Al Stu - MVP ...
    (microsoft.public.windowsxp.moviemaker)
  • Re: How To Draw Disabled Bitamp
    ... >> What I did was set every other pixel to gray. ... Joseph M. Newcomer ... MVP Tips: http://www.flounder.com/mvp_tips.htm ...
    (microsoft.public.vc.mfc)
  • Re: Microsoft Office Picture Manager
    ... As for the jpeg itself the 11x17 is meaningless. ... It's a pixel count x pixel count, and the physical size is determined by the media the image is displayed on. ...
    (microsoft.public.office.misc)