Re: Hot Swapping a SATA drive in Windows 2000 and XP.

From: Nathan McNulty (nospam_at_msn.com)
Date: 09/04/04 

Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 22:35:05 -0700

And I have two PCI devices. A SoundBlaster 2 Audigy ZS Platinum and an
ATI eHome Wonder TV Tuner. All of my drives are connected onboard.
This is why I am having a difficulty figuring out what is going on :) 

----
Nathan McNulty
Len wrote:
> Have been watching this thread for several days... just not sure what the 
> problem/question is?  It is not XP (or any OS for that matter to my 
> knowledge) that designates add-on cards as SCSI but rather the system BIOS.
> 
> This has been the way of things since I can recall!  On many motherboards to 
> this day if you choose to boot from a HD (IDE or SATA) which is attached to 
> an add-on controler you must choose "SCSI" as the boot drive option.
> 
> More modern MBs may have cleaned up the grammer but if the drive is not 
> running on the on-board IDE controler you can almost be assured that when 
> drive info is passed to the OS the drive has already been designated as 
> "SCSI".
> 
> BTW, drives attached to the built-in promise controller will most probably 
> be designated as "SCSI" as well.
> 
> FWIW,
> Len
> 
> "Chris S" <myname@see.signature.com> wrote in message 
> news:4qvhj0l7la61iun76ebpb990ko9snr1huf@4ax.com...
> 
>>Well, it seems that 'add-in cards' are treated differently.  In this
>>thread (http://www.techsupportforum.com/showthread.php?t=12439)
>>someone says '...Remember that Windows calls every add-on controller a
>>"SCSI" controller... it's an archaic leftover which will probably be
>>corrected someday.'
>>
>>My Maxtor SATA/150 card installation manual says, in the section on
>>Confirm Driver Installation, "...Click Device Manager ... ; Click the
>>'+' in front of SCSI Controllers.  'WinXP Maxtor SATA/150 PCI Card'
>>should appear" - so clearly, they expect their driver to show up as a
>>SCSI device.
>>
>>Given that the devices are treated as SCSI, it's somewhat logical that
>>their attached devices will be treated as SCSI too. So I don't think
>>I'm going to get far with my PCI Card SATA controllers (in terms of
>>removable storage), do you?!!
>>
>>So I will see what I can do with my built-in promise controller; I
>>abandoned it because it didn't pass SMART info (which I need for
>>various reasons), but maybe with all the latest chipset drivers and
>>such, it will be usable and may show up as a non-SCSI device, and thus
>>allow me to better configure the 'removability' aspect.
>>
>>But this still kinda blows my original strategy of having SATA cards
>>in all my computers, and using SATA drives the same way I currently
>>use USB2 drives - which really sucks!
>>
>>On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 12:04:03 -0700, Nathan McNulty <nospam@msn.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>First, my SATA controller is onboard since I have an ASUS P4P800
>>>Motherboard.  I don't see anything listed as SATA or SCSI, but I do see
>>>Intel(R) 82801EB Ultra ATA Storage Controllers and my drive is showing
>>>under the second Primary IDE Channel.  When I open the properties of the
>>>drive for my internal, I am offered to uncheck Write Behind Caching, but
>>>that is it.  For my external, it offers whatever I want.
>>>
>>>Try installing these chipset drivers and see if they help:
>>>http://www.guru3d.com/newsitem.php?id=1671
>>>
>>>You may have an old version of the drivers that don't fully support SATA
>>>Storage.  Also, you can try Intel Application Accelerator to make
>>>changes to your drive instead of Windows. You can get that here:
>>>ftp://aiedownload.intel.com/df-support/4857/eng/iaa23_enu.exe
>>>
>>>----
>>>Nathan McNulty
>>>
>>>Chris S wrote:
>>>
>>>>OK, good - so SCSI is the clue here.  The funny thing is ... I have
>>>>two computers at home and one at work that I'm setting up in this
>>>>manner, different mobo brands, different OSs, different SATA cards,
>>>>etc and they are all showing up with SCSI controllers.
>>>>
>>>>So please tell me, Nathan: in device manager, on your system, where
>>>>DOES the SATA controller show up - what label, etc?  Knowing that
>>>>would help!
>>>>
>>>>At home, I have an Asus P4PE and an  Asus P4B533, both with Win 2K.
>>>>Had 'latest' chipset drivers as of a year ago, but I'll check again.
>>>>One has a built-in Promise Fastrack SATA controller which I quit using
>>>>because it didn't pass SMART info.
>>>>
>>>>At work, I have a Dell Dimension, very new (3.4 GHz), no idea about
>>>>chipset drivers but I'll see what I can download from dell.  This is
>>>>Win XP Pro.
>>>>
>>>>The home machines have the Adaptec/Silicon Image SATA card, and the
>>>>work machine has the Maxtor/Promise SATA card.
>>>>
>>>>In device manager, the SATA cards show up under the heading of 'SCSI
>>>>and RAID controlllers'  - on all three machines, two different OS's,
>>>>two SATA card brands!
>>>>
>>>>So knowing what I 'should' see in device manager will give me
>>>>something to aim for!
>>>>
>>>>Thanks!
>>>>
>>>>On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 01:17:35 -0700, Nathan McNulty <nospam@msn.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Things showing up as SCSI is just odd.  I have nothing like this on my
>>>>>system.  I would go into Device Manager (Start-Run-devmgmt.msc) and
>>>>>remove these devices.  Install the latest chipset drivers and reboot.
>>>>>If after installing the latest chipset drivers and a clean configuration
>>>>>of the drives it doesn't work, I would try a fresh install of XP as a
>>>>>last resort if possible.
>>>>>
>>>>>----
>>>>>Nathan McNulty
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Chris S wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Well, I'm stumped.  I just took an old 10 gig maxtor drive (ata) and
>>>>>>put it in my SATA enclosure (which does pata/sata conversion).  The
>>>>>>drive shows up no problem.  I formatted it as FAT32, but still, the
>>>>>>two 'optimize' options on the 'policies' button are grayed out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>This is somewhat consistent with my other tests, which have included
>>>>>>'native' SATA drives (though I can't afford to re-format the 'real'
>>>>>>sata drive at the moment).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I even took my USB memory stick, and was able to format it as NTFS,
>>>>>>and it still had the two 'optimize' options available on the
>>>>>>'policies' tab, so NTFS/FAT don't appear to be the deciding factor
>>>>>>here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The essence of the problem seems to be that my two SATA cards (one
>>>>>>Adaptec/Silicon Image card, one Maxtor/Promise card) present
>>>>>>themselves as SCSI adapters, and thus, disks connected to them are
>>>>>>treated as SCSI disks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Do your SATA adapters and associated drives show up as SCSI devices?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The only other variables I can think of are the specific settings in
>>>>>>the 'disk management' applet; I could make it 'basic' or 'dynamic'
>>>>>>(I've chosen both at various times, seems to make no difference),
>>>>>>primary or extended (think I've tried both);
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I just spent $150 on a bunch of 6 foot external SATA cables, and
>>>>>>internal sata connector posts (to provide 'female' sata connectors on
>>>>>>back of computer) so I'd like to proceed with this, but at this point
>>>>>>I'm running out of ideas!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Thanks!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Thu, 02 Sep 2004 00:06:05 -0700, Nathan McNulty <nospam@msn.com>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I will try to help as best as I can.  I believe you need to have the
>>>>>>>drive formatted as FAT32 to use Optimize for Quick Removal.  This is
>>>>>>>simply what I choose to use for my SATA drive.  I would update the
>>>>>>>chipset drivers, format the drive again, and then set the options 
>>>>>>>right
>>>>>>>there.  XP will not format FAT32 larger than 32GB unless you use
>>>>>>>something different to format it.  I simply connected the drive
>>>>>>>internally and used a Windows 98 Bootdisk.  Your method may vary ;)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>----
>>>>>>>Nathan McNulty
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Chris S wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>And still more info ... I just plugged my SATA drive into my XP Pro
>>>>>>>>office computer (my home computer mentioned below is Windows 2000),
>>>>>>>>which has a Maxtor SATA/150 PCI Card (which is a promise device under
>>>>>>>>the covers).  Going to the properties of the drive in this
>>>>>>>>configuration, I do see a 'policies' tab, but when I select it, the
>>>>>>>>two 'optimize...' options are grayed out, and the 'Optimize for
>>>>>>>>performance' is the option selected.  So I can't change it to 
>>>>>>>>'optimze
>>>>>>>>for quick removal' ....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Stranger and stranger ... ;)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 21:44:24 GMT, Chris S <cschofie@nospam.home.com>
>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Well, the plot thickens, as they say ... on my home system, when I
>>>>>>>>>plug in my SATA drive, and go to it's properties (the same place 
>>>>>>>>>where
>>>>>>>>>I saw 'policies' on the USB drive below), I only see 'Disk 
>>>>>>>>>Properties'
>>>>>>>>>and 'SCSI Properties'.  On the 'Disk Properties' tab, there is one
>>>>>>>>>option - Write Cache enabled; it's grayed out and unchecked.  On the
>>>>>>>>>'SCSI Properties', there are two options: 'Disable tagged queueing'
>>>>>>>>>and 'Disable synchronous transfers'.  Both are available (i.e., not
>>>>>>>>>grayed out), and bot are not checked.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>So the bottom line is, I don't have the 'policies' tab in the first
>>>>>>>>>place, which is where you are going to set the various optimization
>>>>>>>>>choices.  How come my SATA drives are being treated as 'SCSI', while
>>>>>>>>>yours are not?  Is that the root cause here?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>My controller is an Adaptec 'SATA Connect' card, which shows up, 
>>>>>>>>>under
>>>>>>>>>device manager, as a SCSI device 'Adaptec Serial ATA 1205SA Host
>>>>>>>>>Controller', and it's control panel applet says it's a Sil 3112 Rev 
>>>>>>>>>2
>>>>>>>>>device.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Thanks!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:31:29 -0700, Chris S 
>>>>>>>>><myname@see.signature.com>
>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Thanks Nathan.  Is the setting of FAT32 a pre-condition to getting 
>>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>'Optimize for Quick Removal', or am I formatting as FAT32 for 
>>>>>>>>>>another
>>>>>>>>>>reason?  I don't believe I have any compelling reason to go with 
>>>>>>>>>>NTFS
>>>>>>>>>>with these particular drives so if that's the trick, I'll certainly 
>>>>>>>>>>go
>>>>>>>>>>with it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I just popped in a USB memory stick, and went to the 'policies' 
>>>>>>>>>>tab,
>>>>>>>>>>and the two choices/explanations are as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>1) "Optimize for Quick Removal - This setting disables write 
>>>>>>>>>>caching
>>>>>>>>>>on the disk and in Windows, so you can disconnect this device 
>>>>>>>>>>without
>>>>>>>>>>using the Safe Removal icon"
>>>>>>>>>>2) "Optimize for performance - This setting enables write caching 
>>>>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>>>>Windows to improve disk performance. To disconnect this device from
>>>>>>>>>>the computer, click the 'Safely Remove Hardware' icon in the 
>>>>>>>>>>taskbar
>>>>>>>>>>notification area".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>So ... this suggests it's perfectly OK to go with either option, 
>>>>>>>>>>it's
>>>>>>>>>>just that, if you choose 'performance', you need to 'safely remove'
>>>>>>>>>>the device first.  Is the very appearance of that 'safely remove
>>>>>>>>>>hardware' icon in the taskbar restricted to FAT32 devices?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I'll go home and play with this for a while and report back ...
>>>>>>>>>>thanks!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 00:01:30 -0700, Nathan McNulty <nospam@msn.com>
>>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>You have a couple of options.  First would be to format the drive 
>>>>>>>>>>>as
>>>>>>>>>>>FAT32, which you may or may not want to do.  Second, you will need 
>>>>>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>>>>>change the way the device is set up.  Connect the device, open 
>>>>>>>>>>>Device
>>>>>>>>>>>Manager, double click on the hard drive in question, click the 
>>>>>>>>>>>Policies
>>>>>>>>>>>Tab, then set it to Optimize for Quick Removal.  I use FAT32 on my
>>>>>>>>>>>removeable SATA drives and set them to Optimize for Quick Removal, 
>>>>>>>>>>>but
>>>>>>>>>>>you may be able to do it differently.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>----
>>>>>>>>>>>Nathan McNulty
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Chris S wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>SATA drives are theoretically hot swappable; the power and data
>>>>>>>>>>>>connectors are designed for 'hot' removal, with ground wires
>>>>>>>>>>>>connecting first, and the interface is designed to deal with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>various surge issues - this is well known.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>I've used several USB 2.0 external drives, and before you remove 
>>>>>>>>>>>>them,
>>>>>>>>>>>>you are supposed to 'stop' them; presumably to flush any delayed
>>>>>>>>>>>>writes that may be in progress, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>But when I plug in a SATA drive, it does not show up as a device 
>>>>>>>>>>>>to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>'safely removed' in the 'Safely Remove Hardware' applet that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>shows up
>>>>>>>>>>>>if I plug in a USB device.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>I've done some tests; when I plug in a SATA drive (a data drive,
>>>>>>>>>>>>obviously, not a boot drive), a new hard drive shows up, no 
>>>>>>>>>>>>problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>I can read and write to this drive, no problem.  And if I unplug 
>>>>>>>>>>>>it,
>>>>>>>>>>>>or power it down, the drive letter simply disappears - no error
>>>>>>>>>>>>messages or warnings whatsoever.  All sounds good.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>HOWEVER, I could not find a file that I had written to the drive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>This has all the markings of a write-cached file not being 
>>>>>>>>>>>>written to
>>>>>>>>>>>>the device.  So it occurred to me that, somehow, I should be able 
>>>>>>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>>>>>>'stop', or 'dismount', or otherwise 'software disconnect' this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>drive
>>>>>>>>>>>>before I actually remove it.  But the only relevant option I can 
>>>>>>>>>>>>find
>>>>>>>>>>>>for the device is to disable write caching - is that what I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>should be
>>>>>>>>>>>>doing?  I'd rather not do that as it will generally slow down
>>>>>>>>>>>>performance, but if it is the only way to guarantee data 
>>>>>>>>>>>>integrity,
>>>>>>>>>>>>that's what I'll do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>I've seen posts from others that indicate this is a regular 
>>>>>>>>>>>>practice,
>>>>>>>>>>>>so I just wondered, how do I guarantee my files have been 
>>>>>>>>>>>>'flushed'
>>>>>>>>>>>>before removing the drive?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Thanks!
>>>>>>>>>>>>For email, send to chris at panties domain dot com, Remove 
>>>>>>>>>>>>panties and replace domain with attbi.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>For email, send to chris at panties domain dot com, Remove panties 
>>>>>>>>>>and replace domain with attbi.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>===========
>>>>>>>>>Remove 'nospam' from email to reply - Thanks
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>For email, send to chris at panties domain dot com, Remove panties 
>>>>>>>>and replace domain with attbi.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>For email, send to chris at panties domain dot com, Remove panties and 
>>>>>>replace domain with attbi.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>===========
>>>>Remove 'nospam' from email to reply - Thanks
>>
>>For email, send to chris at panties domain dot com, Remove panties and 
>>replace domain with attbi. 
> 
> 
>