Re: Bootable USB HDD
From: Nathan McNulty (nospam_at_msn.com)
Date: 07/31/04
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- In reply to: Edward W. Thompson: "Re: Bootable USB HDD"
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- Reply: Edward W. Thompson: "Re: Bootable USB HDD"
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Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 11:08:46 -0700
I was suggesting it possible to boot off a floppy that loads the drivers
for the external drive and then loads the OS off that external hard
drive. There would be no way to directly boot off an external harddrive
if the BIOS does not support it. I have not even tested loading the
external drive's drivers and booting off it by booting off a floppy at
startup. I have a feeling that I was just too tired and unclear in my
posts.
---- Nathan McNulty Edward W. Thompson wrote: > Please reread your original post as a response to mkine. I think you may > then understand why I and another thought you were accusing me of lying (in > the other respondents words). > > As far as I am concerned this matter is closed. > > It is to no ones advantage to prolong this and I accept your assurance you > did not intend to offend. > > Moving to your more recent posting that suggested, at least this is how read > it, that notwithstanding the lack of a BIOS that allows direct booting from > a USB HDD there is a work around so you can boot directly from a USB HDD; > would you kindly explain further how this is done? As far as I know you > cannot load drivers before the machine boots, so how does the machine > recognise a USB drive during the boot process if there are no drivers? > Further, how do you select, in the BIOS, to boot from the USB Drive if the > BIOS does not allow this? > > > "Nathan McNulty" <nospam@msn.com> wrote in message > news:OXXPnzsdEHA.228@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl... > >>I would like to hear you explain how I "implied you made it all up." I >>did nothing but confirm exactly what you said. I only added that a BIOS >>with the ability to boot from USB is required. I have tried to offer a >>couple of examples that I use that can boot from USB (both chipsets and >>my USB Flash Drive works). >> >>Also, notice I never said anything about fdisk. The reason is because I >>don't ever use fdisk as I feel it is outdated. I think it was great you >>included that part and I never intended to attack that. >> >>I can see you are simply going to see me as flaming you no matter what I >>say, so just know that I never said anything that was meant to offend >>you, but merely offer more information (as well as confirmation). >> >>---- >>Nathan McNulty >> >> >>Edward W. Thompson wrote: >> >>>You've certainly confused me now. What do you mean re your work around? >>>Load USB drivers from a floppy to a Hard drive, then boot the system > > from an > >>>external USB Drive, unless I am missing something pretty fundemental > > here I > >>>don't think so. The machine will not recognise the USB drivers you load >>>until the machine is booted up using the OS on the hard drive . This is > > not > >>>the same as booting directly from a USB HDD when the machine reads the > > OS > >>>from the USB HDD. Surely one of the most significant reasons to boot > > from a > >>>USB HDD is to give an alternative means to start a machine in the event > > of a > >>>failure of the fixed HDD system. >>> >>>With regards to the rest of your post, I think I am justified to say I > > was > >>>offended. I posted in good faith to give information to those who may > > be > >>>trying to boot from an external USB drive. I had some problems that I >>>worked through and thought my experience may save others the same > > trouble I > >>>had. Your post did nothing but implied I have mad it all up and that > > you > >>>cannot boot directly from and external USB HDD. As far as I know, from > > my > >>>searches of Google, there is not similar info available re problems of > > using > >>>fdisk and recreating the mbr. >>> >>>I really wonder what you do when you really set out to offend :-). >>> >>> >>> >>>"Nathan McNulty" <nospam@msn.com> wrote in message >>>news:uMhvqdmdEHA.4048@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl... >>> >>> >>>>LOL, I never attacked the OP, nor did I mean to offend anyone. I was >>>>just adding a little side note. Yes, booting off USB devices is simple >>>>if your BIOS supports it. I don't even need a floppy drive since my >>>>computer can boot off my USB Flash Drive. You simply have to have a >>>>BIOS that supports this and set it up correctly. And just to note, >>>>there are almost always workarounds. If you needed to boot off a USB >>>>Harddrive and your BIOS does not support it, you use a floppy to load >>>>the proper drivers and boot off that harddrive (which could all be >>>>automated). >>>> >>>>Again, to the OP, it was not my intention to offend you, but to expound >>>>a little bit and offer examples. >>>> >>>>---- >>>>Nathan McNulty >>>> >>>> >>>>Wislu Plethora wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>>"Edward W. Thompson" <thomeduk1@btopenworld.com> wrote in >>>>> >>>>>message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>news:ulNdXFjdEHA.1644@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>Firstly, if you read the post I think I made it clear >>>>> >>>>>that my new >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>motherboard does support booting from a USB HDD. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Secondly, the point of the post was to advise others, >>>>> >>>>>who like me, may >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>not >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>know, that fdisk has limitations and the apparent need, >>>>> >>>>>at least in my >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>case, >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>to recreate the mbr if the drive had been previously >>>>> >>>>>partitioned. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>While I may be wrong, I don't think there is any 'work >>>>> >>>>>around' if the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>BIOS >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>does not support booting from the HDD. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>My post has nothing to do with a 'work around'. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Don't you take the time to read what is written, >>>>> >>>>>however imperfectly, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>before you jump in? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>"Nathan McNulty" <nospam@msn.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>news:eOamKtgdEHA.1692@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Just a note. You MUST have a BIOS that supports >>>>> >>>>>External USB Storage >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>Devices. If you have an Intel i865 or i875 Chipset, >>>>> >>>>>you can boot from >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>external USB Storage devices without any extra >>>>> >>>>>effort. Most of this is >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>trying to figure out a way to workaround the BIOS if >>>>> >>>>>your motherboard >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>doesn't support this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>---- >>>>>>>>Nathan McNulty >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Edward W. Thompson wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I am posting my experience in making an external >>>>> >>>>>USB HDD bootable as >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>an >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>aide >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>to others who may be having the same problem. My OS >>>>> >>>>>is WINXP Pro >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>formatted >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>NTFS and the external drive is formatted FAT32. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I have an external usb/firewire enclosure in which >>>>> >>>>>is housed an IBM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>DJSA >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>230 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>2.5" HDD. I have been using this setup for about a >>>>> >>>>>year to store >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>backups >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>and the like. I used the system on both my desktop >>>>> >>>>>(USB 2.0) and >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>laptop >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>(firewire). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I upgraded my desktop to a system that has a >>>>> >>>>>motherboard that allows >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>booting >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>from a USB HDD. I then tried to make my external >>>>> >>>>>enclosure bootable >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>and >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>ran >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>into complications. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Initially I simply transferred (sys) DOS ver 7.0 OS >>>>> >>>>>onto the external >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>HDD >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>(FAT32), made the drive active in WINXP, changed >>>>> >>>>>the boot order in the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>desktop BIOS and tried to boot. The boot process >>>>> >>>>>hung, although the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>external drive was recognised. I then booted to >>>>> >>>>>DOS via a floppy and >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>repartioned the drive using fdisk, making a single >>>>> >>>>>primary partition. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>fdisk >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>identified the external drive as Drive 3, I have >>>>> >>>>>two SATA drives on my >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>desktop. I formatted the partition and reloaded >>>>> >>>>>the OS (Sys c:) from >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>my >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>bootable floppy. So far so good. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I then tried to make the drive active, using fdisk >>>>> >>>>>and found that I >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>couldn't >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>as fdisk will only allow the first drive to be made >>>>> >>>>>active and the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>external >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>drive is recognised as Drive 3. So back to WINXP >>>>> >>>>>to make the drive >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>active >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>there (Control Panel->Admin Tools->Computer >>>>> >>>>>Management). I changed >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>boot >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>order back to USB-HDD first and tried to reboot. >>>>> >>>>>The system again >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>hung >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>during the bootup as before. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>For whatever reason I concluded the problem may be >>>>> >>>>>a MBR problem so I >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>tried >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>to recreate the MBR using fdisk /mbr. Fortunately >>>>> >>>>>before I tried that >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>I >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>read that fdisk /mbr will only rewrite the mbr on >>>>> >>>>>the first drive in >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>system. To rewrite the mbr for another drive (in >>>>> >>>>>my case drive 3) I >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>either >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>had to disconnect my two SATA fixed drives (which >>>>> >>>>>would make the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>external >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>drive, drive 1) or find an alternative to fdisk. >>>>> >>>>>By searching Google >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>I >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>found the symantec gdisk.exe, bundled with Ghost, >>>>> >>>>>will allow rewriting >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>mbr >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>on disks other that the first. gdisk used to be >>>>> >>>>>available as freeware >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>but >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>not anymore. Fortunately I was able to download an >>>>> >>>>>old copy of the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>gdisk >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>freeware version from a site by searching using >>>>> >>>>>Google. I recreated >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>mbr >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>(gdisk 3 /mbr) and the machine now boots from the >>>>> >>>>>external drive >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>without >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>problems. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>I believe my experience only relates to previously >>>>> >>>>>used HDD. If a new >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>drive >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>is partitioned using fdisk anew mbr is created >>>>> >>>>>however when an old >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>drive >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>is >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>repartitioned fdisk does not recreate the mbr. Why >>>>> >>>>>the mbr was the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>source >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>of ther proble, I have no idea. I don't have that >>>>> >>>>>level of knowledge, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>but >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>my experience suggests that if anyone is trying to >>>>> >>>>>make a previously >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>used >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>HDD bootable via an external enclosure, re creating >>>>> >>>>>the drive mbr will >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>be >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>required. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Before I embarked on this 'enterprise' I did look >>>>> >>>>>up as many >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>references >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>as I >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>could find on what was entailed to make an external >>>>> >>>>>usb drive bootable >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>and >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>all my references suggested using fdisk, which for >>>>> >>>>>me gave problems, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>and >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>none indicated that recreating the mbr will/may be >>>>> >>>>>required. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>Hope this may be of assistance to others. >>>>>> >>>>>>Ed: >>>>>>Based on my own experience, to the best of my knowledge >>>>> >>>>>you cannot boot from >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>a USB external hard drive. Hardly a week passes where I >>>>> >>>>>don't come across >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>postings in various newsgroups as well as information on >>>>> >>>>>various web sites >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>that state that "you can boot from a USB external hard >>>>> >>>>>drive as long as your >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>motherboard's BIOS supports this capability", or words to >>>>> >>>>>that effect. I've >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>worked with a variety of modern motherboards, many of >>>>> >>>>>which contain a BIOS >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>element indicating a USB boot capability, but I've yet to >>>>> >>>>>boot to a USB >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>external hard drive containing a cloned XP operating >>>>> >>>>>system. And I have yet >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>to come across a *documented* source indicating this >>>>> >>>>>capability is actually >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>achievable. >>>>>> >>>>>>The following is from Western FAQs: >>>>>>Question: Can I boot my computer using an external >>>>> >>>>>(FireWire, USB, Combo) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>hard drive? >>>>>> >>>>>>Answer: Western Digital does not provide technical >>>>> >>>>>support for booting your >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>computer using an external hard drive. BIOS manufacturers >>>>> >>>>>who design PC >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>system BIOS chips have informed Western Digital that it >>>>> >>>>>is not currently >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>possible to boot your computer with an external hard >>>>> >>>>>drive. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>I also queried Symantec Technical Support on this issue >>>>> >>>>>and here's their >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>response: >>>>>>"Thank you for contacting Symantec Online Technical >>>>> >>>>>Support. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>You wanted to know if you could boot from a external USB >>>>> >>>>>drive that you have >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>cloned to using Norton Ghost. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>The issue at hand would be whether the drive would be >>>>> >>>>>recognized in the boot >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>sequence of your system. To the best of my knowledge, >>>>> >>>>>there is no >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>motherboard that supports booting from external devices >>>>> >>>>>currently. This >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>really has nothing to do with Norton Ghost." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>In addition, I raised the question with two local >>>>> >>>>>computer technicians in >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>our area; both of whom stated that USB external drives >>>>> >>>>>are not bootable. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Using Symantec's Ghost 2003, I routinely clone my >>>>> >>>>>internal hard drives to >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>USB external hard drives. I can, when the need arises, >>>>> >>>>>clone the external >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>drive back to the fixed internal one and under those >>>>> >>>>>circumstances the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>internal drive will be bootable. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>If anyone has personally booted from a USB external hard >>>>> >>>>>drive or witnessed >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>such, I would certainly be grateful to hear about it. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Art >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>The OP stated quite succinctly, "The machine now boots from >>>>>the external drive without problems." Do you think he's >>>>>lying? >>>>> >>> >>> >>> > >
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- In reply to: Edward W. Thompson: "Re: Bootable USB HDD"
- Next in thread: Edward W. Thompson: "Re: Bootable USB HDD"
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