Re: problem

No - the real point of contention with Outsourcing is how it's
applied. If it's truly a cost savings measure then why are there
no "Management Centers" in Bangalore, India. Because Mgr's
sign contracts to replace American workers making $38-50K
a year for young, inexperienced (But fairly well schooled) labor
at a much lower rate of pay. Then the managers have more time
to sit in conference rooms, talk on cell phones and enter their
next 22,871 meetings into their Palm Pilots. When American
companies apply outsourcing to their own mid-to-upper level
management, I'll accept it as a viable option. In fact the whole
process is backwards - send the Managers to India and keep
the workers in place. .

"Johnnyboy" <Johnnyboy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:E7E35F0B-CAB2-40B8-AEB5-7F8FF7BA9062@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>I don't disagree with you but , if you are trying to tell me that Microsoft
> can't afford to have SOME not many but some english speaking tech people
> for
> there English countries , Well then they shouldn't be in the business , Oh
> here we go again , If you don't like it , then don't use Microsoft ,
> PLEASE !
> This is not the point , the point is , all we are saying is have SOME
> english
> american , canadian or UK person for us english speaking people , Is that
> to
> much to ask ??
>
> "Mike Hall (MS-MVP)" wrote:
>
>> You have to know how business and commerce work.. no business owner can
>> sell
>> a product and just put the money in a vault.. that is not how it works..
>>
>> There is this simplistic view around that companies making millions keep
>> it
>> all for themselves.. without shareholders, how long do you think that
>> companies like Microsoft would survive.. they are not selling fizzy
>> drinks
>> from a makeshift stand in the front yard on a bright summer day.. they
>> have
>> a responsibility to the staff, the shareholders, the customers, all who
>> have
>> invested cash into the service.. buildings and machinery have to
>> maintained.. all kinds of overheads are incurred.. the same goes for any
>> company..
>>
>> If anybody wants to see Microsoft go down, then let them make sure that
>> all
>> American employees have another job to go to.. preferably a job that pays
>> the same so that they won't have to do the un-American thing and drop
>> their
>> living standards.. remember also all of the computer users who would get
>> no
>> support at all.. there would be no MS newsgroups anymore, because there
>> would be nobody to maintain them and the hosting servers would be gone..
>> the
>> impact on US society would be catastrophic.. it would spread globally and
>> if
>> you don't think that what happens across the other side of the world
>> affects
>> you, then you need to get your head out of wherever you keep it.. the US
>> is
>> as reliant on the rest of the world as much as anybody, whether you like
>> it
>> or not..
>>
>> Bill Gates gives millions to charity, promotes education in schools,
>> works
>> with other industry to give people a better life.. of course, he is out
>> to
>> make money.. aren't we all?what a Windows user at home sees is but a drop
>> in
>> the ocean.. sit in front of your high definition TV and avoid any
>> educational programmes if you will, but the technology that keeps you
>> amused
>> is tied in with the technology that Microsoft is part..
>>
>> --
>> Mike Hall
>> MVP - Windows Shell/user
>>
>> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Johnnyboy" <Johnnyboy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:43073D50-F13A-446B-BAF8-A919CF9892CB@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >I agree Microsoft is getting rip off from privacy user's but , If you
>> >expect
>> > me to feel sorry for a company that is making million of million of
>> > dollars
>> > for there share holders and even Bill Gates himself is worth how much ?
>> > last
>> > time I heard this guy has millions and what , Microsoft can't come out
>> > with a
>> > better way to provide tech support for there legitimate customers ,
>> > then
>> > there is something wrong with the system , The way I see is we live in
>> > a
>> > system that is run by greed and corruption , the more money they make ,
>> > the
>> > stronger greed and corruption become , We as honest good hearted people
>> > can
>> > only do is learn to live with it until that big day comes when it will
>> > all
>> > fall apart and believe me it will fall apart , What really counts is ,
>> > what
>> > side of the fence will you be on ?
>> >
>> > "Mike Hall (MS-MVP)" wrote:
>> >
>> >> RedWagon
>> >>
>> >> Outsourcing support is a difficult issue all around.. I agree that
>> >> conversing with somebody whose first language is not English is not
>> >> always
>> >> easy.. on top of that there are bound to be problems with cultural
>> >> differences in as much as their responses to each other could be
>> >> misinterpreted by somebody from another culture.. an example, albeit a
>> >> simple one, is the difference between a New Yorker, who on answering a
>> >> phone
>> >> call might respond with the exchange and number that is being called,
>> >> Plaza
>> >> 579 for instance, where somebody in Madrid, Spain would use the
>> >> Spanish
>> >> equivalent of 'talk to me'..
>> >>
>> >> The cost consideration is also difficult.. Microsoft is the
>> >> manufacturer
>> >> and
>> >> vendor of over 80 products that are sold globally.. the support and
>> >> resources that make these products what they are is the sum total of a
>> >> considerable range of ideas and talents that could not realistically
>> >> be
>> >> recruited just from Redmond, Wa or from the entire US continent.. all
>> >> of
>> >> the
>> >> product line is produced in many languages.. computer users expect new
>> >> versions like they expect a new Mustang model every year, and it had
>> >> better
>> >> be worth it or people get mad and stomp their feet..
>> >>
>> >> If you were to go around all of the departments in all of the
>> >> countries,
>> >> you
>> >> would be left wondering how they manage to produce stuff so cheap!!!!!
>> >> Take
>> >> into account also that nearly half the world are maybe using pirated
>> >> versions, and that Microsoft get nothing off these users at all, and
>> >> you
>> >> could end up feeling sorry for them..
>> >>
>> >> In any manufacturing industry, cost of the product to the customer is
>> >> determined by adding up all of the production costs initially, adding
>> >> some
>> >> on to cover for the inevitable increase in cost of materials bought in
>> >> from
>> >> outside the company for the goods to be made after the initial batch,
>> >> and
>> >> then setting a price on the basis that at least xxxx thousand units
>> >> will
>> >> be
>> >> sold.. it is a minefield.. supposing that when Lomghorn is released
>> >> some
>> >> time next year, most refuse to upgrade immediately.. no sales, no pay,
>> >> no
>> >> more R&D, thousands being laid off work, no support structure..
>> >> nothing..
>> >> Microsoft reserves will have to keep the show going until sales are
>> >> made..
>> >> and those reserves will have to be built up again for the next time..
>> >>
>> >> So, why is support being outsourced?.. essentially because it is a
>> >> necessary
>> >> evil that doesn't contribute to manufacturing at all.. it is a money
>> >> drain..
>> >> one also has to consider that the company in India or wherever, has
>> >> given
>> >> Microsoft a service level agreement to which they may not always
>> >> adhere..
>> >> this is the point at which Microsoft customers seeking support will
>> >> suffer
>> >> and duly complain as is their right.. but Microsoft are also victims
>> >> if
>> >> the
>> >> service level agreement is short changed..
>> >>
>> >> I could as easily be talking about General Motors, who are in dire
>> >> straights
>> >> presently.. very sad..
>> >>
>> >> The simple answer is that we all expect too much for too little..
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Mike Hall
>> >> MVP - Windows Shell/user
>> >>
>> >> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "REDWAGON" <REDWAGON@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> >> news:F33AC084-9925-45A9-9C22-0D2ADE3EEC8B@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > Hey "Piece" Mike---First--I'm not the only one that thinks "Out
>> >> > Sourcing"
>> >> > American jobs is a good idea. That happens to be my personal
>> >> > opinion,
>> >> > which
>> >> > may be different than yours. Second: I have contacted Microsoft on
>> >> > several
>> >> > occasions because of a pretty difficult problem I had, and got a
>> >> > tech
>> >> > from
>> >> > India. Now I think I am about a 7 on a scale of 1 to 10 as far as MS
>> >> > Win
>> >> > XP,
>> >> > MS 2000, Win98 & 95 are concerned and after talking to the other
>> >> > techs
>> >> > from
>> >> > India I very soon found out that I was way ahead of them from the
>> >> > "gi-go"
>> >> > let
>> >> > alone trying to understand their broken type English. I very
>> >> > politely
>> >> > asked
>> >> > them to slow down their speech and that did help a little.
>> >> >
>> >> > Third: When I read a persons post on this group, it doesn't take to
>> >> > much
>> >> > assuming to figure out how much they know generally, after asking
>> >> > them
>> >> > just a
>> >> > few questions in a reply post. For that reason and for those
>> >> > persons, I
>> >> > just
>> >> > personally think it would be better to give them a very direct
>> >> > possible
>> >> > solution rather than have them go into the operating system and try
>> >> > and
>> >> > do
>> >> > all these more complicated things that come pretty easy for you and
>> >> > a
>> >> > lot
>> >> > of
>> >> > others. I feel that in most instances that just gets them in more
>> >> > trouble.
>> >> >
>> >> > No hard feelings Mike. I have read many of your post on this group
>> >> > and
>> >> > have
>> >> > found you to be extremely helpful. I just got a little frustrated
>> >> > about
>> >> > the
>> >> > "Out Sourcing" deal (And I think that's my American right) and still
>> >> > feel
>> >> > like Microsoft could screen their help in India a little better so
>> >> > that
>> >> > guys
>> >> > like me and the one that started this particular post could under
>> >> > stand
>> >> > them
>> >> > better. AND----Do something better about the "pat" answers they
>> >> > usually
>> >> > give
>> >> > out.
>> >> >
>> >> > Cheers, and keep up your good work. I just "WISH" I had enough $$$
>> >> > to
>> >> > start
>> >> > a helpdesk web site (Here in the good old USA) as you so suggested.
>> >> > But
>> >> > for
>> >> > the time being I will just have to sign in on news groups like this
>> >> > one
>> >> > and
>> >> > hopefully learn more and very possibly be able to help someone at
>> >> > the
>> >> > same
>> >> > time.
>> >> >
>> >> > Redwagon.....
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > "Mike Hall (MS-MVP)" wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> So put your money where your mouth is and start a helpdesk, offer
>> >> >> your
>> >> >> services to Microsoft, and give the American people what you think
>> >> >> they
>> >> >> deserve.. and when you ask for money to cover the cost of any
>> >> >> advice
>> >> >> given,
>> >> >> don't expect clean suggestions from all of them..
>> >> >>
>> >> >> US citizens want something for nothing and are no different to
>> >> >> anybody
>> >> >> else
>> >> >> in that respect, but in this life, we get what we are prepared to
>> >> >> pay
>> >> >> for..
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> Mike Hall
>> >> >> MVP - Windows Shell/user
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "REDWAGON" <REDWAGON@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> >> >> news:4135EF95-7A49-454D-B74F-4EB643572F5E@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> >> > What a crock of crapola all you MS-MVP's are talking about. And
>> >> >> > if
>> >> >> > you
>> >> >> > think
>> >> >> > that most of those MS tech's from India talk better than most
>> >> >> > americans,
>> >> >> > you
>> >> >> > are from a different planet !! The fact is that "Out Sourcing"
>> >> >> > for
>> >> >> > Microsoft,
>> >> >> > Dell and the rest of them is strickly for MONEY !!!. I think I
>> >> >> > know
>> >> >> > as
>> >> >> > I
>> >> >> > have
>> >> >> > a friend that IS in India helping some of the tech's and even HE
>> >> >> > has
>> >> >> > a
>> >> >> > hard
>> >> >> > time getting them to understand and has a hard time understanding
>> >> >> > most
>> >> >> > of
>> >> >> > them also. And the pay for the tech's there is so far under what
>> >> >> > they
>> >> >> > would
>> >> >> > have to pay a good college grad tech from the US, it rediculous.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Don't get me wrong, I use MS products because even after all of
>> >> >> > their
>> >> >> > holes,
>> >> >> > I have learned to skirt most of the problems by getting help from
>> >> >> > groups
>> >> >> > like
>> >> >> > this. It just is very annoying that so many of the replies one
>> >> >> > gets
>> >> >> > from
>> >> >> > this
>> >> >> > group for a particular problem is not even close.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Maybe if everyone had one of those "read line for line" books
>> >> >> > that
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > tech's from India have you would be as far ahead as calling them.
>> >> >> > And
>> >> >> > who
>> >> >> > ever thinks the tech's in india have good English haven't called
>> >> >> > one
>> >> >> > of
>> >> >> > them
>> >> >> > lately.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > "OUT SOURCING"---If you think that is good for the good old USA,
>> >> >> > you
>> >> >> > need
>> >> >> > to
>> >> >> > move out of the country, as your head is in the hole in the sand
>> >> >> > !!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Redwagon.....
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > "Steve N." wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> JB wrote:
>> >> >> >> > Hi ... I am not racism at all and , I agree with you , If
>> >> >> >> > microsoft
>> >> >> >> > is
>> >> >> >> > sending out there tech support call in center to another
>> >> >> >> > country
>> >> >> >> > that
>> >> >> >> > there
>> >> >> >> > native language isn't English , Then Microsoft should at least
>> >> >> >> > provide
>> >> >> >> > tech
>> >> >> >> > support people that can clearly speak the English language ,
>> >> >> >> > Whats
>> >> >> >> > the


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