Re: ATTN an MVP that is against the MS EUA

From: David Candy (.)
Date: 02/03/05 

Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2005 00:52:33 +1100

WTF is a two hour delay. 

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"Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message news:pan.2005.02.03.13.44.35.375997@nowhere.lan...
> On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 13:54:38 +0100, Alias wrote:
>>
>> "Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
>> news:pan.2005.02.03.12.33.13.690585@nowhere.lan... | On Thu, 03 Feb 2005
>> 13:11:08 +0100, Alias wrote: |
>> | >
>> | > "Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message | >
>> news:pan.2005.02.03.12.00.24.415664@nowhere.lan... | > | On Thu, 03 Feb
>> 2005 15:16:11 +1100,  wrote: | > |
>> | > | > Another principal is there should be a relationship with the
>> cost of the
>> | > | > good/service. If an office type product costs $1 to make and is
>> selling
>> | > | > at $100 lots of firms will start making and selling it so the
>> price will
>> | > | > come down, via competition, to just above $1. Patents prevent
>> this | > | > happening.
>> | > |
>> | > | There is nothing that says you have to use the above referenced
>> office | > | product when there are very viable alternatives already on
>> the market. | > |
>> | > | Just the other day I was sent a Excel spread*** with 28000 rows
>> and 30
>> | > | columns. I was on the FC3 Linux box at the time and using
>> Evolution with
>> | > | my Exchange server, clicked on the attachment, selected save-as,
>> saved it
>> | > | to a new folder on the drive, then browsed to it and opened it
>> with | > | OpenOffice's spread*** application and wala - it worked
>> just fine. | > | Edited it, saved it, sent it back to them.... | > | | >
>> | The relationship between product and purchase is that you don't have
>> to
>> | > | purchase a product you can't afford and you may attempt to get the
>> vendor
>> | > | to reduct the cost of products you feel are over-priced, but you
>> may not
>> | > | pirate copies just because YOU feel they are over-priced. | > | >
>> Open Office hasn't got an Outlook type program, a Front Page type
>> program or
>> | > an Access type program and hence its limitations compared to MS
>> Office. And,
>> |
>> | Actually, Evolution is also a free download and it contains all the |
>> elements of Outlook, and it worked with a POP, IMAP, and EXCHANGE NATIVE
>> | CONNECTOR.
>> 
>> URL?
> 
> http://www.novell.com/products/desktop/features/evolution.html
> 
> It's included in the FC3 4 CD distro you can download, the FC3 one is not
> a trial version.
> 
>> | Front Page! Do people actually use that crap?
>> 
>> I do, almost every day. I love it.
> 
> With so many problems and security issues with it you might want to
> consider trying alternative programs - like DreamWeaver MX or even
> open-source products. I'm not saying you have to, but once you use
> DreamWeaver MX you would never go back to anything MS for editing FP style
> pages.
> 
>> | Linux FC3 comes with a
>> | compliant HTML editor with a GUI interface, so, now you've got it down
>> to | MS Access, which is, at best, a single user database. I have not
>> found | anything as simple as Access, but the FC3 installation does come
>> with a | MySQL server installation that is far more than Access, but
>> it's not as | easy as Access for people that don't want to learn.
>> 
>> FC3 is not easy to deal with. We've tried it for three days and gave up.
>> It is *not* as user friendly as XP. We have some technical expertise and
>> we had problems. Imagine what the average computer user would have. FC3
>> is not a viable alternative to Windows.
> 
> I installed FC3 without ANY issues on P3 and P4 systems, everything worked
> out of the box, not one single issue. I do know that some systems with the
> newest of hardware will require searching for drivers - much like XP - but
> the vast majority of systems that are 6+ months old are supported. Some
> onboard RAID controllers are not supported, major market ones are.
> 
> When I gave a FC3 system to my kids they had only minor issues - like what
> application is the same as Word, what is the spread-*** application,
> email and web browsing were the same...
> 
> Since the average user can't install XP, I can't see this as any
> different, except that it gives you the option of Workstation or Server or
> Custom.... If you just let it wipe the drive and do the defaults it's
> about as close to perfect as it gets.
> 
> What specific problems did you have with FC3?
> 
>> | We've installed the full office products on thousands of systems and I
>> can | count on 1 had the number of people that actually create their own
>> MS | Access projects.
>> |
>> | > yes, one *may* pirate any software. What you are saying that if one
>> has | > integrity, honesty, morality and is a good boy scout, one
>> *shouldn't* | > pirate overpriced software like Office. Unfortunately
>> for you and for |
>> | No, I didn't include price in the idea at all - one should not pirate
>> ANY | software, not just MS software.
>> 
>> Overpriced software like Office is commonly pirated. Nine out of ten
>> users didn't pay for it.
> 
> That may be, but I don't see the stats for it anywhere reputable - I do
> know thousands of users and less than a few % mention anything or are
> suspected of running pirated Office applications.
> 
>> | > MS, millions, if not billions, of people don't think it immoral,
>> lacking | > intergrity or honesty to pirate overpriced Office software
>> and could | > care less if they are a good boy scout. I would go so far
>> as to say that | > nine out of ten users of MS Office haven't paid for
>> it. Now, what should |
>> | I agree, there are many unethical people in this world, and as each
>> day | turns there are more self serving, loners, thieves, pirates,
>> whiners, at | people that believe someone/everyone owes them something -
>> it just isn't | true.
>> 
>> What should be done about them?
> 
> That's the million $ question - it goes back to the parents that raised
> them, the schools that were stripped of the ability to teach them or to
> enact rules/regulations by the parents, it goes back to social changes by
> parents and liberals that don't want to accept responsibility for their
> kids actions or upbringing. During typical interviews with the under 30
> group I bet I've rejected more applications than any other age group -
> mostly for ethics and big-headedness. I had one lamer call and tell me
> that there was a 2 hour delay for schools in his area and he wanted to
> know how come the customer didn't (large corp) also have a two hour delay
> and how unfair it was, and whine about it.... He didn't last long, was
> always late, etc...
> 
> I think, as everything runs in cycles, that these brats will find
> themselves boxed into a corner sooner or alter than have to face the fact
> that the world does not revolve around them, that no-one owes them a job
> let alone anything else, and that they owe society for all that they can
> work towards. It would be funny to send them out of the US and see how
> long they survive - most would not last a month.
> 
>> | > be done about that? Lock up millions, if not billions, of people?
>> Spout | > morality on Usenet? Argue with Kurtis? What should be done
>> about it, hot |
>> | If no one refutes what Kurt says to people on the edge it will breed
>> more | pirates and unethical types.
>> 
>> What should be done about them? Prosecute millions, if not billions, of
>> people????
> 
> That would drive the cost of the product even higher, I think the
> authentication test is a good means to resolve the issue, although not
> perfect, it's a good start. I would actually take it a step farther, I
> would disable the OS and Applications on machines that are detected with
> 90% certainty to be pirated installs - I might give them a 5-day warning
> and a number to call, but after the 5 days I would disable the OS and
> Apps.
> 
>> | > shot? My suggestion is that MS should lower their prices and allow |
>> > multiple installations, say three, per family. |
>> | I would love to see MS lower their prices, and if people took just a |
>> little time to learn they would find that you can openly/legally
>> purchase | Office 2003 SBE (includes Access) for $241
>> 
>> That's too much. A family of three with three computers would have to
>> pay 723 dollars. Too much.
> 
> Too much? How, they don't have to use XP or MS Office, it's a choice, not
> a right.
> 
>>  through most OEM programs in
>> | the US (no idea about outside US), and that Windows XP Prof is only
>> $140 | OEM, and that MS allows an install of Office on a workstation and
>> a laptop | with the SAME licenses (always has). In fact, MS allows an
>> install of | Company owned MS Office on the employee's home computer
>> with the same | license key used at the office.
>> 
>> Big deal.
> 
> That solves your issue with cost, but you discount it?
> 
>> | You can argue that MS is bad and not doing what ever you want them to
>> do, | but the simple fact is that people would be doing what you say at
>> any | price point, would install 4 if they let you install 3, would
>> break any | agreement, etc....
>> 
>> Most families don't have more than three computers.
> 
> Most family's don't have more than 2 computers, but pirating a copy for
> the second is still being a pirate. There is no excuse for being casual or
> self-centered. There is NOTHING that requires a family to have 2 computers
> or more, nothing that requires them to run Windows XP or MS Office
> products, nothing except self serving excuses.
> 
>> | At some point you have to decide to be a thief or to use another
>> product - | there are many products out there that don't require you to
>> steal from MS, | ones that even import most of what MS Office produces,
>> some even more | efficient than the MS products. |
>> | Ask yourself this - how many copies of Apples products can you install
>> on | your home MAC's (if you had 10 MAC's at home) with one license? How
>> many | Word Perfect Office Suites can you install on one license? How
>> many Adobe | Acrobat (full product, not the reader) can you install with
>> one license? | I don't see any of these sanctimonious/self righteous
>> types going after | those companies - all I see is people attacking MS
>> because they don't like | business.
>> 
>> We were using the example of Office. Photoshop, Word Perfect, etc., is
>> also overpriced and heavily pirated. You still haven't answered my
>> question: What do you suggest be done to the millions, if not billions,
>> of people who have pirated overpriced software on their computers? Lock
>> them up? Shoot them? Come on, Mr Morality, you must have a good,
>> Christian and moral answer for that.
> 
> Sure, I already posted it above: Disable the OS/Apps on machines that are
> considered, 90%+ certainty, to be pirated copies - including the original
> copy, giving a 5-day warning and phone number, and after the 5 days, just
> fails to boot. That would solve most of it, and it wouldn't cost anything
> to implement, except for the call center lines/staff. There you go, a
> ethical, moral, simple solution - and I'm not a Christian either.
> 
> 
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