Re: After SP2 Try getting the Live Update Patch and then Install SP2

From: Chad Harris (ddram32_nospam_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 08/11/04 

Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:04:37 -0400

No David. *By all means install SP2--you are better off undoubtably with it
than SP1*. But although MSFT says in all their articles to uninstall the
AV before you install it, it's been my experience that SP2 will install with
AV in fine but has broken, for example NIS, totally. I think the best
option is to run Live Update to get the new patches available for NAV 2004
and NIS 2004 (the ones Chris has talked about) among other Norton
applications, then install SP2 and you should be fine. In other words try
to get your Norton app patched and then install SP2 with it.

That's what Norton is recommending. Things get a little confusing in that
every one of about 50 write ups MSFT has on their site say to uninstall NAV
first, but I'd go on and patch it for SP2 then install SP2. MSFT also has
one "generic KB" that talks about using AV software before upgrading to
Windows XP.

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;317321

NortonLive Update is the means, and this should have happened automatically
already for you that the patches for SP2 are being installed. Then
hopefully, you won't have SP2 problems.

If you have any problems, please post. I have their fixes down and all
their KBs.

Chad Harris

"David Cleland" <davidcleland@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uKq5GP9fEHA.3016@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
Now I am confused,

I use Norton Internet Security 2004 - are you telling me not to install SP2
?

David

"Chad Harris" <ddram32_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:OZ0maM9fEHA.1188@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
> Chris--
>
> I appreciate the Live Update patch came out with their FAQ. One problem
is
> that *SP2 breaks Live Update* whether you uninstall Norton and install SP2
> (as virtually every Microsoft document on SP2 tells you to do) or leave
> Norton/Symantec in. The bottom Line is after a lot of game playing and
> clicking successive links on Live Update, tripping through multiple Norton
> KBs one leading to the next, you have a *LU 1812 error*, whose final move
> is to uninstall NSW or NAV manually and meticulously, and after you have
> exhuasted it's remedies, it won't fix with SP2 RTM period.
>
> The only way they are delivering the compatibiilty patches for SP2 is
> through Live Update. SP2 whether Norton is installed before or after
breaks
> Live Udpate and you can't get the patch.
>
>
http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/sharedtech.nsf/docid/2003082911090713?OpenDocument&src=_mi&product=LU&version=2.5&language=english&module=LU&error=1812&build=Symantec
>
> The part left out on the KB is to install any other antivirus
product--many
> will work with SP2.
>
> They are not making any other means avialable to patch Norton other than
> Live Update. If it's broken, and their KBs to fix it often don't, you're
> stuck with scan not working, booting up and having to turn on Auto Protect
> with a right click (minor) and often uninstall problems with Norton
> products. Microsoft tells you to install SP2 first (uninstall NAV) and
> Norton/Symantec tell you to wait until they are updated (in some cases 8
> weeks from now for Enterprise Products according to their enterprise FAQ I
> linked before) before installing SP2.
>
> Microsoft tells you to turn their Windows Firewall on; Norton 2005
products
> on the last box before you click finish will tell you in a single explicit
> box to turn it off. NAV 2005 has a piece of NPF or NIS billed as "worm
> protection." How much of a piece and what it actually does compared with
> the Windows firewall that has been criticized with respect to outbound
> traffic still after SP2 RTM is hard to define. Many people are finding
> that the Windows firewall leaves much to be desired right now, as you
know,
> but I'm sure it will be a different story come Longhorn in 2007.
>
> http://www.symantec.com/techsupp/sp2/faq.html
>
> The answers from Symantec on this FAQ just issued just aren't true in some
> cases. There is the paradox that for many, Live Update doesn't work with
> SP2 and Norton has elected not to deliver their update patches any other
> way. They aren't making them available on their site now. That was a
goofy
> choice to say the least. The patch to fix what's broken can't be obtained
> because you are required to use what's broken to get it--that's not only
> ironic and paradoxical--you ain't gonna be able to fix what's broken.
>
> Microsoft wants you to put in SP2 before Norton, and if you put in Norton
> first and patch it, SP2 can still break Norton a number of ways. Norton
> 2005 seems to work pretty well with SP2 until you boot 3 times, and then
you
> have refresh freezing on all categories on the Norton Integrator or gui
> interface, i.e. you can't tell what's on. You can see that email
scanning
> is working. The important thing of course, is that Auto Protect is
> enabled, because in fact Auto Protect includes adequate email scan and
> script blocking to the point you could turn the other two off and be just
> fine according to every Symantec engineer I talked to--so you have to be
> able to determine that Auto Protect is up and running.
>
> I reproduced this and so did others about 25 times.
>
> Sometimes but not all that can be fixed by reregistering jscript.dll, and
> downloading and reinstalling Scripten or the Microsoft Windows Script
> package including the Windows Script Host 5.6 since IE has to function
> correctly to read the Norton interface.
>
>
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=c717d943-7e4b-4622-86eb-95a22b832caa&displaylang=en
>
> This KB applies to any version of NSW or NIS through 2005 with Windows
> versions past 9X. Often Norton doesn't update KBs in version name for
> Windows version, but the Norton/Symantec KB will do the job.
>
>
http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/nsw.nsf/0f75ab1a9982283d88256c250066dc94/9918704bb68cedfe882568040070e925?OpenDocument&src=bar_sch_nam
>
> The FAQ says:
>
> "Installing Service Pack 2 will have no affect on Norton Personal Firewall
> or Norton Internet Security."
>
> Some of the FAQ's are vague to the point of covering anything that will
> happen,--I like this one because it avoids saying SP2 can break things
that
> are Norton/Symantec and it does.
>
> "How will installing Service Pack 2 affect the Symantec Products I have
> already installed?"
> A. "This varies on the Symantec [Norton as well] products you own."
Right.
> Many break.
>
> On many boxes, installing SP2 any build will outright break
> NIS/NPF any version. It will put up a box that says "You're not the
Norton
> supervisor" and when you put up the Norton Integrator (the box that shows
> what it does with NAV added you can see it but you can't do anything with
> it). You'll not be able to uninstall NIS or NPF from Add/Remove, and
you'll
> have to use a Norton KB that involves 30-45minutes of using a Norton
> removal tool, thendeleting several GUID keys and other registry keys,
> multiple folders, every Norton file you can track down in ectopic places.
>
>
> "With Service Pack 2 installed, do I even need my Symantec antivirus and
> firewall products? Absolutely."
>
> Norton explicitly tells you to turn the Windows Firewall "*off*" in their
> 2005 products about to release. I wouldn't run two software firewalls or
> more at once, and I don't have data comparing their abilities like
stateful
> inspection head on with say, ZA, and that info isn't easy to come by now.
> What they didn't say in the FAQ is that when you load Norton or Symantec
> anything, it's going to tell you to turn your Windows Firewall in SP2
> off--last box before "Finished Install."
>
> "Installing Service Pack 2 will have no affect on Norton Personal Firewall
> or Norton Internet Security" Just not the case. SP2 can make it
difficult
> to install, and particularly to uninstall Norton products. I don't know
> the numbers in 10,000 boxes for this.
>
>
> I've found this to be totally *untrue* and reproducable that the firewall
> can and will break. Norton also tells you on installation of any 2005
> product to *turn off the Windows firewall*. It's the last box before you
> click "Finish" on the install of the Norton/Symantec 2005 AV, PF, or NIS.
>
> Norton anti-spam is hype and whatever it does can be spelled a dozen ways
> without it.
>
> Norton Go Back reconfigures the Windows Master Boot Record, and I'd just
as
> soon have someone playing with my elevator lift on the way up the Empire
> State Building--it often has the same effect and unhooking Go Back from a
> botched Windows boot strap mechanism is simply impossible--their tech
> support will tell you they have no clue how and so will MSFT personnel.
In
> a high percentage of cases, Go Back will destroy partitions in the Windows
> Operating System and you won't be seeing that particular OS again ever.
> It's refractory to Recovery Console moves or commands and a repair/upgrade
> or parallel install will get nowhere.
>
> SP2 can destroy scans in Norton System works, the ability to make it run
> after boot, and Live Update the same as in Norton Antivirus.
>
> On some people's boxes the security center will monitor it, but how many
> people need the Security Center (none here) need the Security Center to
tell
> them where Technet is, how to get to Help and Support, or whether their AV
> or Firewall are all. Very few individuals who install a Norton product
> don't adjust it at the Norton product or who are going to be working with
> the Windows Firewall as it evolves and gets better toward Longhorn are
going
> to be relying on the security center to check on the firewall. My point
is
> that there are 3 things that happen with multiple versions of NAV that
don't
> work with SP2--sometimes with the patch update. There are fixes for them,
> and sometimes they don't work. System scans, booting up with Auto Protect
> Off (it usually can be turned on but sometimes can't--and Auto Protect is
> key because it does script blocking/scanning and email scanning--even if
you
> had them both turned off (they are duplication in Norton/Symantec) auto
> protect will cover that functionality. Live Update will often not work
with
> SP2 and for those people, they can't update to the patches anyway, because
> Norton has chosen not to make the patches available any alternative way
> which is goofy to say the least.
>
> *Contradiction of Instructions by Microsoft and Symantec/Norton on SP2*
>
> There is also the direct contradiction between Microsoft's instructions
and
> Norton's. Every place MSFT has an SP2 article at Technet, MSDN, the XP
> Expert Zone or any place on MSFT's site, you are told you should uninstall
> AV to install SP2.
>
> Symantec and Norton explicitly tell you to wait to install SP2 until you
> have updated NAV--and in the case of Symantec patches for enterprise
> security, AV, and firewall products there is a vague timetable projecting
8
> weeks out from now for release toward the end of September.
>
> When you install a Symantec or Norton 2005 product, it tells you
explicitly
> to *turn off the Windows firewall--something I know the Networking team
and
> SP2 team did not strive to have done. NAV 2005 has a piece of their NIS
> 2005 firewall, so-called "Worm Protection" although how much a piece is
> impossible to quantify unless you are a Symantec engineer who has the
code.
>
> I do know that Microsoft is definitely developing Microsoft Antivirus
> products, but that the publicity campaign for them is non-existent. I
would
> bet on Microsoft to produce a superior product to Symantec/Norton in a
> number of ways, including the ridiculous necessity to read 10 Norton KBs
to
> do a cascade of work arounds to make a product work. Live Update is a
great
> example. Scans that fail are another. Clicking a plus to go to a drop
down
> to get a link to get the 5th KB you've used for one Norton problem is like
a
> childeren's game. Those come into play with SP2.
>
> I personally hope Microsoft puts Norton and Symantec out of business and
> gets their AV product up and running rapidly. I guarantee Symantec is
> looking over their big floundering shoulders.
>
> Best,
>
> Chad Harris
> _________________________________
>
>
>
> "Chris H." <winxpnews@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:%23Ledkh6fEHA.3348@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> Between your post last night, Chad, and early morning (PDT), I'm seeing
> reports of Live Update now downloading the proper fix so the Norton
Internet
> Security 2004 is now compatible with SP2, and Norton Antivirus is now
> properly reporting to the XP Security Center its status.
> --
> Chris H.
> Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
> Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
> Associate Expert
> Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
>
>
> "Chad Harris" <ddram32_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Omrhpw2fEHA.3048@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> > Unfortunately, Chris, Norton didn't come out with anything yet for home
> > and small business users on their site and have thus far refused to
> > specify the degree of backwards compatibility that the promiesed and not
> > yet delivered patches for *Norton* products would entail. Although
there
> > are go arounds to make SP2 work with any version of Norton product, and
> > some a little bit Byzantine--the routine where you read one Norton KB
and
> > click on an icon in Live Update to reveal the next KB to read, followed
by
> > a hyperlink in the error message to read the 3rd KB--they all end with
> > uninstalling Norton appropriately I belive and should add to install a
> > product from another company.
> >
> > The webpage that didn't deliver from Norton that has been up all week is
> > this one:
> >
> >
http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/tsgeninfo.nsf/docid/2004080212383739?Open&src=ivr_na_con
> >
> > They plan whenever this happens (it didn't happen on August 10 as the
web
> > page has been announcing all week, to deliver a patch in two parts, the
> > second after a reboot.
> >
> > The importance of SP2 working for enterprises and home was in
Microsoft's
> > press release:
> >
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2004/aug04/08-06WinXPSP2LaunchPR.asp
> >
> >
> > "With the proliferation of viruses and other broad threats on business
and
> > consumer desktops, I can think of no higher priority than trying to
ensure
> > the security of personal computers," said Rob Enderle, principal analyst
> > for
> > the Enderle Group. "Whether the customer is a large enterprise, a small
> > business or an individual, Windows XP Service Pack 2 is critical because
> > it
> > addresses today's exposures in a comprehensive fashion. For anyone
> > currently
> > using Windows XP, my advice is to apply it at your earliest
opportunity."
> >
> > The disingenuous comment by Symantec Senior Vice-President Stephen
Cullen
> > is here:
> >
> > "With the proliferation of viruses and other broad threats on business
and
> > consumer desktops, I can think of no higher priority than trying to
ensure
> > the security of personal computers," said Rob Enderle, principal analyst
> > for
> > the Enderle Group. "Whether the customer is a large enterprise, a small
> > business or an individual, Windows XP Service Pack 2 is critical because
> > it
> > addresses today's exposures in a comprehensive fashion. For anyone
> > currently
> > using Windows XP, my advice is to apply it at your earliest
opportunity."
> >
> > Actually in *several papers* available at Technetand MSDN, Microsoft
> > urges people to uninstall the antivirus before installing SP2. There is
a
> > different story though, from Symantec who advises people to wait for
their
> > patches before installing SP2 on the webpage linked above.
> >
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/winxppro/maintain/winxpsp2.mspx
> >
> >
http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/tsgeninfo.nsf/docid/2004080212383739?Open&src=ivr_na_con
> >
> > "Symantec will release a product update to provide native support for
the
> > Windows Security Center status utility found in SP2. This update will be
> > available worldwide over the coming weeks and will enable Symantec
> > products to communicate their status to the Windows Security Center
> > utility."
> >
> > Symantec asks you to wait, and in the case of their time table for
> > enterprise editions for a vague range up to 8 weeks:
> >
> > FAQ Running Symantec Client Security
> > http://tinyurl.com/6mfsy
> >
> >
http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/nsw.nsf/0f75ab1a9982283d88256c250066dc94/9918704bb68cedfe882568040070e925?OpenDocument&src=bar_sch_nam
> >
> > http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/nav.nsf/docid/1999082515392606
> >
> > "Symantec encourages its customers to install the product update prior
to
> > installing SP2 in order to avoid incorrect reporting from Windows
Security
> > Center."
> >
> > The "security center" for almost everyone who reads and contributes on
> > these two groups is pretty moot, since they don't need that very basic
> > thing to tell them where Technet security links are, or whether their
> > firewall and AV are "on." But many Norton products require work-arounds
> > to make a system scan work (can be obtained as well from any web site
and
> > sometimes will work from the command line with SP2 and for some people
> > will not), to make "Live Update" for what it's actually worth work, and
to
> > boot up with auto protect on.
> >
> > Actually script blocking and email blocking are duplicative ancillary
> > functions and hype in a Norton/Symantec AV product--not because those
> > things aren't important--but because any engineer who works at Symantec
> > will tell you that Auto-Protect does everything the other two do, and
the
> > other two could actually be turned off and you'd still get email
scanning
> > and script blocking.
> >
> > Norton Antivirus 2005 actually has a box telling people *explicitly to
> > turn the Windows Firewall in SP2* off as does their Tech Support
currently
> > (I spoke with several of them yesterday)--the reason being because NAV
> > 2005 has a little code from their "worm protection" or firewall which
> > competes with the Microsoft Windows firewall. How much firewall is
> > available in NAV 2005 is hard to determine (their new "worm blocking
> > feature.") Obviously it isn't the whole NIS 2005.
> >
> > NAV 2005 for many people who have used it works fine with SP2 until the
> > third boot, and then it has the well known freeze in refresh problem
that
> > is addressed sometimes by this Symantec KB which applies to Win XP RTM
> > although it doesn't say so. A lot of Symantec/Norton KBs are labeled
> > forone year's version but the same steps apply to versions of Windows
and
> > Norton after 9X. This is corrected by reregistering "jscript.dll" and
> > downloading and reinstalling Windows Script Host 5.6 and other
components.
> >
> > The more people they tick off by dragging their feet on compatibility to
> > force sales of 2005 boxes, the better it may be for the new company,
"the
> > new security vendor on the block," Microsoft Antivirus.
> >
> >
http://news.com.com/Security+vendors+face+new+kid+on+block%3A+Microsoft/2100-1016_3-5302920.html
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Chad Harris
> > _____________________________________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> > "Chris H." <winxpnews@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:%2317WUfwfEHA.636@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> > The problem in some cases is (1) a previous version of the beta SP2
> > software
> > has been installed, and a program installed during that existence, or
(2)
> > a
> > software company hasn't updated their software to work with SP2 yet
> > (example: Norton/Symantec, which is coming out today with an update to
> > fix
> > issues). Otherwise, it is very rare a program will fail.
> > --
> > Chris H.
> > Microsoft Windows MVP/Tablet PC
> > Tablet Creations - http://nicecreations.us/
> > Associate Expert
> > Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
> >
> >
> > "KMO" <teardrops@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:Xns95416BD9E3EF4KMO@216.168.3.50...
> >> "Mike Williams [MVP]" <mikew@Nospam]mvps.org> wrote in
> >> news:#5FkhRmfEHA.2764@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl:
> >>
> >>> Some software is known to fail on SP2 due to new security settings.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Well that doesn't sound very inviting!
> >
> >
>

Relevant Pages