Re: I need Help. "No Safe Mode" and...? Possibly an opportunity to recover.

From: D.Currie (dmbcurrie.nospam_at_hotmail.com)
Date: 08/27/04 

Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 13:09:48 -0600

"Chad Harris" <ddram32_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eV5QbnEjEHA.3876@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
> 1) Of course, a high percent of these problems would be a lot easier hands
> on. But we don't enjoy that luxury in this setting.
>
> 2) I didn't write this. *You* wrote it ( You quoted yourself there).

No, I didn't quote myself, that's the first time I said it. What's your
point?

>
> "The problem with a cut-and-paste post with the complexity of yours is
>> thatwhile some of it may be completely on target for a given situation,
>> other
>> parts won't apply at all, and may confuse the person getting the message
>> or
>> convince them that you didn't read their message and can't possibly have
>> a
>> useful answer, thus they'll ignore the good advice given"
>
> 3) Like most anyone, I cut and paste when I need to put a link or links
> into a post or parts of a previous post that I think are appropriate.
>
> 4) "For someone who knows what they're doing, changing the bios to boot
> from CD or running a repair install of WIndows is not a big effort.For
> someone who's in new territory, just getting into the bios and figuring
> out how to navigate it can be a daunting task." Most of us have been in
> enough teaching and helping situations on the giving or receiving end to
> appreciate the empathy here. No one I see posting wasn't a beginner at
> some point in their lives or isn't a beginner now in some area of their
> learning curves. It may be a big effort, but clear instructions are in
> the MSKB or link I give them every single time I mention going into bios
> setup. Since I can't be there on the machine, I always have the empathy
> to include clear instructions to get to the bios. Instructions navigating
> the bios are on the web, and of course many times the person may have the
> huge inconvenience of access to only one box and needing to use the
> internet by borrowing one from a friend or someone else. That's a given.
> I can only give the clearest set of instructions I think will help them
> and I try not to camuoflage it in information for other purposes. The
> inplace upgrade MSKB, Michael Stevens' instructions and screenshots of an
> inplace upgrade are about as clear as it gets to do one.
>
> Also having experienced the boot to windows problem early on as a
> beginner, I can compare some of the help in posts I do or see here and
> what they are going to get when they call on the phone to MSFT Support
> which is not going to be MSFT but Convergys or an OEM help line.
> It's not going to mention half the possibilities a high percent of the
> time.

I have no idea why you're getting your undies in a knot over this. I just
said that it was a complex answer for someone who isn't very computer saavy.
I didn't say that there was anything wrong with it. Complex is not a value
judgement; it's not good or bad. It's complex, simple, or somewhere in
between. Your answer had a lot of information, a lot of steps involved, a
need to follow links elsewhere and read material that was even more
complicated and technical, therefor I think that it is a little complicated
for someone who isn't used to this type of thing.

>
> 5) I can think of dozens of reasons why a computer might not get all the
> way
> into Windows. Not all of them are software-related. A bad stick of ram,
> for
> instance, can do some pretty interesting things.
>
> Anyone can think of dozens of hardware related reasons why someone can't
> get to Windows. That's right. And some accounts of the problem are a lot
> more explicit and specific than the one Debbie who hasn't posted since
> offered and can give clues to that. There's probably no one who responds
> to a "can't boot to windows problem" that doesn't appreciate every point
> your trying to make. We know it can be hardware related. We know they
> may only have one box to work with with them that can be dead or not able
> to reach the web.
>
> "A bad stick of ram, for instance, can do some pretty interesting things."
> Thanks for the earth shaking revelation here. I had no idea a bad stick
> or RAM, or a loose stick of ram, or a loose anything made of metal or cord
> can do some pretty interesting things.

This is what you said:

"you don't have a wide panopoly of options.
> There are actually relatively few simple ones.

...which is what I responded to. Maybe your definition of relatively few is
different than mine.

>
> 6) "But it was an extremely complex answer for someone with few computer
> skills" I disagree. I think it was an extremely on point answer and the
> person with few computer skills may have summoned a friend who could help
> execute it. It beat the hell out of ignoring what was a conspicuous plea
> for help in upper-case with those little punctuation marks called
> explanation points about 35 times.

Fine. You don't think that your answer was complex for someone with few
computer skills. I did. What's the big deal? I never said you were wrong, so
why is this such a big deal?

>
> 7) Often in these situations, someone will be working from a friend's
> laptop or notebook or PDA to do the post and access the web, so using
> Belarc to get info is not out of the question. Many people will remember
> what key they have seen a few hundred times to use to get into the bios on
> the firmware screen but will not have realized its context when they
> stared at it on each boot.
> For this reason, using Belarc, Everest Home, SiSoft Sandra, or msinfo 32
> in the run box will often apply to help someone get into the bios setup.
> Navigating the bios is explained in any number of sites if you google
> with those words and have an additional box to google with.

Except that she couldn't get into Windows to get to the "run" box. This is
the *only* part of your post that I pointed out was not on point for this
particular user.

>
> In a perfect world, someone might have that assistance you invoke readily
> available but often they don't, can't get it, or can't afford it. That's
> one reason they're here.
>
> 8) None of my answers are "stock answers." They are tailored to the
> problem I see.
>

I didn't say your answers were. I said there was nothing wrong with stock
answers. A lot of people use them rather than endlessly retyping the same
thing over and over to answer some of the commonly asked questions here.

> 9) I missed besides critiquing me

Ah, is that was this was about? That I was critiqueing you? I think you
misread it. I was responding originally to your comment that :

"and I have something I can paste to
> help the next person, when in a few hours or days from now someone else
> can't get into safe mode but can boot from the CD"

I was pointing out that it was a rather complex answer with a lot of
information which may not apply in the next case.

and the plug in the monitor suggestion
> what you offered her to help. I don't think anyone who posts doesn't
> realize competent hands on help is a good thing to get if they can. Often
> the person will summon a lot of help on the group, people will do the best
> they can in that format, and rush out after posting the dilemma with the
> box, and never look at the group again.
>
> Thanks for the novice posting tips D. Currie. They'd best be directed to
> a novice posting forum.

You seem to be reading a lot into my comments that simply aren't there.

>
> I'll continue to try to respond to a request for help when data is at
> stake and work with what I'm given. Fortunately, unlike this case the
> poster has enough manners when they've put up a plea for help to answer
> questions that may make it easier to help them, but about 10% of the time
> as in this case, nothing is heard from them after their first frantic
> plea.
>
> Best,
>
> Chad Harris

Nice that you're still going to help.

> _________________________________
>
> "D.Currie" <dmbcurrie.nospam@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:2p7jpjFhl1f9U1@uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Chad Harris" <ddram32_nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:O%2312c35iEHA.1764@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>> D. Currie--
>>
>> I think your suggestion about display and the monitor to Debbie is a very
>> good one well worth considering. The problem is we're not sure what's
>> happening on that box and we may never know.
>
>
> With luck, they've found someone to help, as it's a problem that would be
> a
> lot easier hands-on.
>
>>
>> You wrote:
>>
>> "The problem with a cut-and-paste post with the complexity of yours is
>> that
>> while some of it may be completely on target for a given situation, other
>> parts won't apply at all, and may confuse the person getting the message
>> or
>> convince them that you didn't read their message and can't possibly have
>> a
>> useful answer, thus they'll ignore the good advice given."
>>
>> That's why no cookie cutter cut and pastes are ever launched from me.
>
>
> I was responding to your comment that you'd have something to paste to
> help
> the next person. If that's not what you meant, that's the way I read it. I
> have no idea if you cut and paste or not, I'm just responding to what you
> wrote.
>
>>
>> I don't think it's that complex a situation.
>
>
> No, but it was an extremely complex answer for someone with few computer
> skills. I was responding to the complexity of the answer, not on the
> complexitiy of the problem. For someone who knows what they're doing,
> changing the bios to boot from CD or running a repair install of WIndows
> is
> not a big effort. For someone who's in new territory, just getting into
> the
> bios and figuring out how to navigate it can be a daunting task.
>
>
> When you can't boot to
>> Windows, and you're dealiing with an NTFS File System or a Win-FS file
>> system in the next Windows OS, you don't have a wide panopoly of
>> options. There are actually relatively few simple ones.
>
>
> I can think of dozens of reasons why a computer might not get all the way
> into Windows. Not all of them are software-related. A bad stick of ram,
> for
> instance, can do some pretty interesting things.
>
>
> Here though, I agree we just
>> don't know what the dark screen means. It may well be a monitor problem
>> or bios triggered problem.
>>
>> In addition to cutting and pasting, I delete and write the posts and
>> tailor them to the situation. Mosf of them are on the fly, because I
>> either can't get to folders with stashed references or it's just faster
>> for me to nail the article by searching. I tend to want to respond to an
>> "I can't get to Windows--I'm gonna lose my data and settings
>> help!!!!!--(I may not have backed up adequately)" type post and I get
>> about 100% feedback on them and lately that hasn't been the case that
>> they are convinced I didn't read their message and can't possibly give a
>> useful answer and will ignore. That's not what the tone of the feedback
>> has been on the "can't boot to Windows."
>
>
> You seem to be taking this all a little too seriously and perhaps
> misunderstanding what I'm saying. I was merely pointing out that when a
> person says they get a black screen "after the first screen" whatever that
> might be, and they can't get into Windows any which way, and your response
> includes instructions to download and install Belarc so they can figure
> out
> what their bios is, they may think that you haven't fully read their post.
>
> There's nothing wrong with telling someone about Belarc or suggesting that
> it's useful for gathering information, but in this instance, it doesn't
> apply.
>
>>
>> I figure the reason I learned to write was not to shove cookie cutter
>> "one size fits all" solutions at people. However, I think everyone who
>> tries to help on the usenet/groups/forums stashes posts with links they
>> can borrow so they don't have to go throught the time consuming
>> painstaking search trying to find the system restore, system file
>> checker, or recovery console link or KB, when all of us are trying to
>> help with the demands and pressures of making a living.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Chad Harris
>> _________________________________________________
>
>
> There's certainly nothing wrong with having stock answers available if the
> situation applies.
>