Re: KB835732 breaks S3 standby timer

From: Rock (rock1_at_hotmail.com)
Date: 04/26/04 

Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 19:04:17 GMT

If you're running multi-boot environment on one PC, you'll have some
trouble with your settings.

1. Please disable APM for win2k, Winme, winXP. APM is a BIOS
interface where Windows drivers will look to send BIOS APM messages
for power control. ACPI is a WDM construct. This means:
        a. WDM drivers must support ACPI power messaging to pass
WHQL. (USB, 1394, PCI bridges, etc)
        b. SCSI, and NDIS drivers do not have to support ACPI
messaging to pass WHQL. Lately, most do support it, because there is
some confusion about NDIS support and NDIS power OIDs (object
identifiers). Most net drivers hook the WDM message and convert to
NDIS power control OIDs. This is a time-phased statement, early NDIS
drivers (Intel Pro/Wireless 2011 Lan PC Cards , for example) don't use
NDIS oids, but I believe they have defined their own proprietary OIDs.
Anyway, most late SCSI and NDIS drivers hook WDM ACPI messages.
I frankly don't know if Win2K eliminates support for APM or not, or
how well it does support APM if it is there. If you have APM enabled,
Win98's default will use APM and I think ignore ACPI. A 3rd party
driver may not, and try to use ACPI, so you might get bizarre
operation.

2. Please enable APM for Win98 and Win98SE, and disable ACPI. This
is a religious statement, and may offend many people in Redmond. They
worked very hard to make ACPI work, but frankly weren't supported by
the hardware community. So to avoid 3rd party hardware, problems, and
Windows driver interaction issues, you should disable ACPI for these
operating systems. Now, there should be some spin-down timers
available in your powr schemes tab under power options in the control
panel. Set that to the timeout you want. If you're using SCSI and
that item doesn't appear, please contact your SCSI driver
manufacturer. They probably have that fixed. (Based on your comment
about Adaptec, maybe not.)

3. Keyboard and mouse wakeup should work. We made sure it always
worked in our notebooks, but now most NBs come from China and who
knows how much quality testing they get.

Rock

On Sat, 24 Apr 2004 13:26:38 +0200, Andrew Aronoff
<NOSPAM_WRONG.ADDRESS@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Hi, Rock.
>
>FOA, thanks very much for your post.
>
>< probably more than you ever wanted to know about Power Management>
>
>I'd like to know a lot more than I do, so thanks again.
>
>< if you're using Windows power management, disable BIOS power
>management in your hardware setup. >
>
>I'm not sure what you mean by this. Here's the way my AMI BIOS is
>configured for working S3 standby in W98SE, W2K and WXP:
>
>IPCA Aware O/S Yes
>ACPI Standby State S3/STR
>Re-Call VGA BIOS at S3 Resuming Disabled
>Power Management/APM Enabled <-- could be DISABLED
>Power Button Function On/Off
>Restore on AC/Power Loss Last State
>> Set Monitor Events ...
>[I'll skip this screen]
>> Set Wake Up Events ...
>Resume On Ring Disabled
>Resume On PME# Disabled
>Resume On RTC Alarm Disabled
>RTC Alarm Date <-- RTC Alarm is DISABLED
>RTC Alarm Hour <-- RTC Alarm is DISABLED
>RTC Alarm Minute <-- RTC Alarm is DISABLED
>RTC Alarm Second <-- RTC Alarm is DISABLED
>USB Device Wakeup From S3 Disabled
>Keyboard Wakeup From S3 Specific Key <-- optional
> Specific Key for Wakeup Password
>Mouse Wakeup From S3 Left-button <-- optional
>
>Which settings, if any, would you advise to change? I'll change 'em
>and see what happens. My hunch is that everything set above is
>necessary with this motherboard and BIOS except the seven commented
>lines. Of course, *one* of the lines marked "optional" must be enabled
>for resume from S3 to be possible.
>
>< Power Management is absolutely the last thing that goes into a
>driver development >
>
>If it makes it in at all. Just ask Adaptec. They'll tell you
>everything they know about PM and it won't take long. ;-)
>
>< Check device manager for each device >
>
>I had indeed found PM controls for my mouse, modem and NIC. I believe
>that any checkboxes to "Allow the computer to turn off this device to
>save power" are a waste of energy ;-) , since these devices consume
>very little power. However, checking "Allow this device to bring the
>computer out of standby" on my NIC proved very helpful for the PC that
>acts as a server. It can remain in S3 standby until a client on the
>LAN calls for it.
>
>< Consider how hard it is to restore a VPN after you've saved to file
>>
>
>True, but that's the nature of TCP/IP connections. What counts for the
>user in this case isn't reestablishing the connection but a graceful
>recovery -- no data loss and a clear error message.
>
>< HTH >
>
>Sure did.
>
>regards, Andy
>
>
>Rock <rock1@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I would like to clarify a couple of Andrew's comments below: (probably
>>more than you ever wanted to know about Power Management)
>>
>>Since ACPI, the BIOS simply tells Microsoft what methods to run or can
>>be run to support power management. ACPI was Microsoft's attempt to
>>take over power management so it was uniform for all PCs and basically
>>didn't permit one vendor's BIOS to work better than another for
>>purposes of battery life benchmarks. (of course their reasoning was
>>that it gave users a better experience....)
>>
>>Now with ACPI, the BIOS should not be in control. If it's trying to
>>do power management, and ACPI drivers are trying to do it too, it's
>>likely you will see bizzare problems. Consider when BIOS turns off a
>>device and a driver goes out to wait for a particular bit of a
>>register to be set, and that chip's turned off. What will the driver
>>do? Having written drivers, I'll tell you we don't set timeouts on
>>every Windows function call or every register bit tested. So it can
>>hang.
>>
>>Recommendation: if you're using Windows power management, disable
>>BIOS power management in your hardware setup.
>>
>>I have seen BIOSes that have the ability to turn-off ACPI. Basically,
>>there's a bunch of tables that the BIOS puts in a certain spot in
>>memory so Microsoft ACPI drivers can find the info. (Typically
>>hardware vendor ACPI drivers don't use this info). There are BIOSes
>>that can disable this feature, so if you want to run Windows power
>>management, you have to enable this ACPI. (This iis *not* the same as
>>PnP aware). In the Device manager (see below) you can tell if you're
>>running ACPI, there will be a system device that's functioning
>>normally (I hope).
>>
>>
>>If you are hibernating, and resuming, you are very fortunate indeed.
>>Power Management is absolutely the last thing that goes into a driver
>>development, because the developers are trying to make the device
>>work when it's powered on, not figure out how to turn it of and
>>restore its state when it comes back up. I have seen drivers that
>>have had to be completely restructured to add PM, and management (of
>>course) decided not to invest the money to do it. Since it's
>>typically added as an afterthout, you'll find controls scattered
>>around. so here's where to look
>>
>>1. You found Control Panel/Power Options
>>2. Check device manager for each device: rt-click My Computer,
>>select properties, click the hardware tab, push the device manager
>>button. Then open each device and look around for power management
>>options. I have powr management options on my net card and monitor
>>devices.
>>3. Check your network cards. Rt-click My Network Places select
>>properties, rt-click the entries that have a device name on the
>>right-hand side, and look at the device configuration (button near the
>>top). In my case I have the same power management options there that
>>appear in DeviceManager.
>>4. Check the setup configuration software for installed devices. I
>>saw power management options in a Dlink wireless LAN card's special
>>control panel.
>>
>>Regarding what's left-on in hibernate: that's up to the PC designer.
>>Hibernate is S4 . The system's state is saved to a file, and
>>everything's typically turned off except for the things that can bring
>>the PC out of hibernation: typically "Wake-On-Lan" special packets.
>>You don't move the mouse to come out of hibernation. This is the
>>thing that's last done in an ACPI driver, so if it's working for you,
>>you are lucky. And you buy good hardware. Anyway, it's up to the
>>hardware vendor to write the ACPI hibernate stuff to permit that
>>driver to save the state on ACPI power-down messages, and reset the
>>device and put that state back in. Consider how hard it is to restore
>>a VPN after you've saved to file: the keys are gone, the sequences
>>that make the VPN have completely disappeared. So it usually just
>>doesn't work after a hibernate.
>>
>>There can be2 versions of S4: turn off the power to the PCI bus (so
>>your LAN card can't wake the machine ever) or leave power to certain
>>devices on (like the PCI or Southbridge, PCI bus, PCMCIA copntroller,
>>etc.) Again, up to the discretion of the manufacturer.
>>
>>S3 is deep sleep. HAving designed PCs, the only thing we could safely
>>turn-off was the CPU power. We could spin-down the hard drive, but we
>>couldn't turn it off (typically). The RAM is left on, and goes to
>>slow-refresh mode or for very good hardware, self-refresh mode.
>>Typically, all PLLs are left-on (they are the clocks inside the chips
>>and I have seen where they can consume 50% of the power dissipated by
>>a given chip).
>>
>>S2 is typically not used. It's defined as a lowr-power S1.
>>
>>S1 is standby. In this state, different devices may enter
>>power-saving mode. And maybe not. I have seen CPU clocks slowed, and
>>hard drives spun down. The rules are different and depend on your
>>hardware supplier. Microsoft simply issues the ACPI message, then the
>>video driver may determine to blank your CRT. But maybe not. because
>>that'sure to generate support calls (Why did my screen suddenly go
>>blank when I was running that presentation!!!????!!!??) I think
>>Microsoft's driver sends the ATAPI command to spin-down the drive, but
>>you might not be using Microsoft's driver.
>>
>>There are utilities out there that can set device timers to enter the
>>standby state after receiving the ACPI message. Phoenix had a good
>>one.
>>
>>So if you want to save more power in standby, you'll have to get one
>>of those utilities. There used to be a way to set power profiles in
>>Windows, but I just looked and it seems it's gone (that is, you could
>>set the timers and stuff.)
>>
>>HTH
>>
>>Rock
>>
>>On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 18:32:34 +0200, Andrew Aronoff
>><NOSPAM_WRONG.ADDRESS@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Hi, Peter.
>>>
>>>>Standby didn't seem to do anything on my machine
>>>
>>>Probably because it wasn't configured in the BIOS. Windows will ask
>>>the BIOS to put the PC on standby. If the BIOS hasn't been configured,
>>>it simply ignores the request.
>>>
>>>There are two different modes of standby typically available, S1 and
>>>S3.
>>>
>>>S1 (standard) standby is less advantageous, IMHO, because it leaves
>>>the fans running. Hibernation, at least, shuts down all the noise
>>>sources, but it also disables Scheduled Tasks. IOW, when the PC
>>>hibernates, it's completely shut down. It just starts up a bit faster
>>>and puts the O/S back to the same operating point.
>>>
>>>S3 standby has significant advantages: all the noise sources are
>>>stopped and the PC restarts quickly, much quicker than with
>>>hibernation. The only thing that's left powered is the RAM and, at a
>>>diminished level, the processor. Since the processor and RAM stay
>>>powered on, scheduled programs can still run. The disadvantage of S3
>>>is that power is still consumed and, if it's lost (a portable's
>>>batteries die, for example), any unsaved data in programs that were
>>>open when the standby started will be lost. If a user is careful to
>>>hit the save button often when working, the issue of data loss should
>>>be minimal. The exact power consumed by S3 standby is variable. You'd
>>>need to test it out to see if it meets your needs.
>>>
>>>I know of no PC that's delivered with S3 standby enabled. I don't
>>>really know why. Since it _must_ be configured in the BIOS, most
>>>people don't even know it exists. If it _was_ typically configured,
>>>its proper function could not be ignored by Microsoft.
>>>
>>>If you look in your PC's owners manual, you may see an explanation of
>>>the suspend modes that are available in the BIOS. Look for "S3" or
>>>"STR" or "Suspend To RAM". If your PC has it, you'll probably have an
>>>option to set a "password" for wake-up. In fact, it's not really a
>>>password at all, but a handy keyboard shortcut. If I want the PC to
>>>resume, I can just hit a few letters on the keyboard. If your PC's so
>>>equipped, you might want to give S3 a try.
>>>
>>>regards, Andy