Re: Visual Studio 2005 Beta 2

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Yo Charlie,

> It "Is" intuitive or it's "Not" depending on your understanding of the
> modern philosophy.

Not exactly, but I think I see where you're going with this. "Intuitive" is
a term which is purely subjective in nature. While reading right to left is
"intuitive" to weterners, it is not to asians. If one is used to the
Microsoft way of doing things (and Microsoft is pretty consistent with their
interfaces), it is "intuitive." Otherwise, not.

> We didn't have the luxury of referencing some reference to a reference
> because we had RAM measured in Kilobytes so I can sort of see why folks
> describe modern software as "Bloated" but OTOH I can see there's so much
> more versatility that counteracts the size criticism.

The term "bloated" has a more specific meaning, but has fallen into such
common abuse that it is nearly impossible to use it with any hope of
communication any more. The actual meaning of the term "bloated" with
reference to software is "unnecessarily large and cumbersome." It is a
reference to poorly-optimized software, not to software that has a lot of
features. If "bloated" referred to software that has a lot of features, or
is larger in bytes and resource usage than some arbitrary and subjective
standard, it would be virtually meaningless. For example, any multi-tasking
operating system might be referred to as "bloated" as one might subjectively
be satisfied with running just one program at a time, and feel that the
overhead necessary to manage multiple tasks is "bloat."

In this context, Visual Studio can hardly be referred to as "bloated." The
beta versions definitely require more optimization, but that is coming.

> Similarly with the "Help". Yes it does tend to assume you know what
> several other references in each section mean, and the result for me is
> rather like an old text based adventure game. Each room leads to a new
> mystery and you don't fully "Get it" until you finish the game. Most of
> those games seemed so darned obvious, but only "After" they were
> finished..

Agreed. This is similar to the topic of the term "intuitive." Microsoft has
a methodology with regards to help and search engines, and admittedly it is
not the best (Google has the best, but MS failed to purchase them). However,
once one is accustomed to using Microsoft help, it becomes quite helpful.

> I bought 3 books, first for years, all beginners guides and all MS.
> C++.NET, C#.NET and VB.NET. At my level of learning all 4 have helped to
> explain the fundamentals of the more specific help files. I don't think
> you need a 2005 "Book" if you've used previous versions at all, given the
> background

Agreed. I occasionally buy a book to "get my feet wet" with a new MS
technology, but the MSDN library really is comprehensive, and once you get
used to it, you can find out anything about anything. It does fall short of
the Google standard, but they continue to work on it. Remember that
searching is ALL that Google does. Still, I have found virtually everything
I need to know about the Visual Studio IDE in the MSDN library. Eventually.
;-)

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
The sun never sets on
the Kingdom of Heaven


"Charlie Tame" <charlie@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:O42%23nHZkFHA.3436@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> "Phill. W" <P.A.Ward@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:uvmUbeDaFHA.1448@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> "Nick Gilbert" <NickG@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:ekVkPPDaFHA.2124@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> . . .
>>> You shouldn't need a book if you're familiar with VS.NET 2003. In fact
>>> you shouldn't need a book at all - the built in help system is excellent
>>
>> Excellent??? I have to disagree.
>>
>> Extensive, yes;
>> Comprehensive, yes;
>> Comprehensible? /Only/, IMHO, if you /already/ know what
>> you're talking about.
>> Useable (i.e. can you find out what you need to know, /assuming/
>> that you don't already know it)? I would say not.
>>
>> It /does/ completely document the 3500+ Framework classes, but
>> it certainly doesn't make it any easier to work out just /which/ of
>> them you need to use for any given task.
>>
>>> and the IDE is pretty intuitive.
>>
>> Agreed. I've got used to it, now.
>>
>>> Anyway - it's only an IDE. If you need a book to understand an
>> IDE then you probably shouldn't be a software developer.
>>
>> Oh no! If you need a /book/ to understand an /IDE/, you need to
>> find yourself a better IDE!!
>>
>> Regards,
>> Phill W.
>
> Sheesh, can I agree with you both here? Rating rank amateur having been
> out of the field for many years, although I did start decades ago with
> Assembler.
>
> It "Is" intuitive or it's "Not" depending on your understanding of the
> modern philosophy. We didn't have the luxury of referencing some reference
> to a reference because we had RAM measured in Kilobytes so I can sort of
> see why folks describe modern software as "Bloated" but OTOH I can see
> there's so much more versatility that counteracts the size criticism. What
> this means is that someone like me will probably never use half the stuff
> in the IDE so it can seem like excess baggage. Similarly with the "Help".
> Yes it does tend to assume you know what several other references in each
> section mean, and the result for me is rather like an old text based
> adventure game. Each room leads to a new mystery and you don't fully "Get
> it" until you finish the game. Most of those games seemed so darned
> obvious, but only "After" they were finished..
>
> I bought 3 books, first for years, all beginners guides and all MS.
> C++.NET, C#.NET and VB.NET. At my level of learning all 4 have helped to
> explain the fundamentals of the more specific help files. I don't think
> you need a 2005 "Book" if you've used previous versions at all, given the
> background knowledge I lacked I'd say the help is adequate.
>
> I think 2005 may make previous versions obsolete very quickly. I mean
> there'll maybe be a place for some of the older versions for some types of
> work but I'd be interested if you "Pros" would agree about the above.
>
> Charlie
>


.

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