Re: Dual Boot Instructions

Hi, David.

You haven't studied Disk Management nearly enough! :^{

I note that Disk Management has a first column called "Volume", but
I suspect this is at odds with what you have described, or is it?

You are looking only at the Volume List, which is at the top of the window, by default. Maybe you haven't Maximized the Disk Management window and cannot see the Graphical View at the bottom of the window. The Graphical View doesn't bother to put column headings, but the left-most column shows the PHYSICAL DISK number, not the partition (volume) letter.

It appears that my Disk 0 has the System
Partition and Boot Volume as well as other things.

You should, at any one time, see ONE System Partition and ONE Boot Volume - and they may or may not be the SAME volume. Are they, in your system? But, at another time, when you dual-boot into a different OS (WinXP?), the System Partition should remain the same volume, but a different volume will have the Boot status - and the volume that was labeled Boot before will now be "just another volume". Well, it will no longer the Boot volume, but if it was the System Partition (in Vista?), it still should have that status. Remember the "Y": It stands on a single leg (the one System Partition) and can branch to any one of multiple Boot Volumes - but only one at a time will be the current boot volume.

I have downloaded VistaBootPro 3.3 is that all I need to download?
Is EasyBCD any better or they both do the same job? You haven't
made any reference to these utilities. Aside from that I think I'm just
about ready to go, ("good to go"). Thanks again for your help mate (in the
U.S. I think you say "buddy"). Much appreciated.

I've used the third-party BCD managers just enough to know that I prefer to use BCDEdit. Yes, it's clumsy and inscrutable and "techy", but I got familiar with it during the Vista beta.

But you shouldn't need any 3rd-party programs. Just make up your mind and go for it. You started this thread more than a week ago and you've received nearly 2 dozen replies from nearly a dozen helpers. And you haven't actually tried anything yet. You could read about "how to ride a bicycle" for years but, until you actually get on the bike, you still won't understand what the book is trying to tell you. And, until you actually try to partition and format that new drive, you won't really understand Disk Management. You'll understand it better after you've "crashed your bike" a couple of times, recovered from the crash, and tried again.

Please don't send me an email about this. Netiquette frowns on email responses to newsgroup posts. In email, only two parties can benefit; here in the newsgroup, others can participate and learn or help, too. If my answer is wrong or incomplete, someone here can correct or complete it. If I give you bad advice in email, you're just stuck with it.

Good luck, Mate!

RC
--
R. C. White, CPA
San Marcos, TX
rc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Microsoft Windows MVP
Windows Live Mail 2009 (14.0.8064.0206) in Win7 Ultimate x64 RC 7100

"DavidG" <DavidG@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:AB4E3BF6-5671-4CCA-A2B9-526880C77BD1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
G'day RC,

You sound just like an Aussie.

To matters partitioning,

In disk management my computer shows

Disk 0 (C:) as 465GB NTFS (with Vista)
It is healthy with (System, Boot, Page File, Active, Crash Dump,

Primary Partition)

Disk 1 Storage (D:) as 698GB NTFS (just data storage)
Healthy (Primary Partition).

I haven't physically installed the 3rd XP disk yet. (I want to

make sure I understand exactly what I'm doing before I go messing

something up).

Having said that I'm sure I have enough information and support, I

just need to read over it all and absorb it.

I note that Disk Management has a first column called "Volume", but

I suspect this is at odds with what you have described, or is it?

What I've also gathered is there is a limit of 4 partitions to a

disk. But I can create an Extended Partition that can house

additional partitions. It appears that my Disk 0 has the System

Partition and Boot Volume as well as other things.

I have downloaded VistaBootPro 3.3 is that all I need to download?

Is EasyBCD any better or they both do the same job? You haven't

made any reference to these utilities. Aside from that I think I'm just
about ready to go, ("good to go"). Thanks again for your help mate (in the
U.S. I think you say "buddy"). Much appreciated.



"R. C. White" wrote:

G'day, Mate! (Did I say that right? <g> )

> The only reason I'm putting in the extra HDD
> is because of the negatives I've heard about 2 OSs on 1 drive. Am I
> misled?

The problem is in our often-imprecise use of the word "drive". Just like
many other words ("right" and "left" come to mind), this word means
different things at different times, depending on the context.

If "drive" means a single partition or logical drive, then the negatives
you've heard are very true.

But if "drive" means a physical hard disk drive, then I'm in big trouble
because I have SIX versions of Windows installed on my 1 TB Disk 1, my
second HDD! I'm currently running the Win7 x64 RC from the 9th logical
drive on that disk!

Rather than type it all over again, let me paste what I just typed in
another newsgroup. It's partly a repeat of what I just said - or said in an
earlier post - but it seems to need the repetition:

<paste>
About "drive" letters: This is one of my pet peeves because it is one of
the hardest mindsets to break! "Drive" has many meanings, just like "right"
and "left" and so many other English words. And in computer-speak, it
sometimes refers to the physical hardware, but more often to just a
partition - just a defined portion of the physical disk. Our often cavalier
use of the word "drive" causes one of the biggest fallacies ingrained into
the minds of new computer users - and the fallacy persists even in many
(most?) computer veterans. :>(

"Drive" letters are never assigned to physical disks; those are assigned
NUMBERS, not letters. They start with zero, which is why Disk Management
calls the HDDs "Disk 0", "Disk 1", etc. Each "drive" letter actually is
assigned to a "volume", which can be either a primary partition or a logical
drive in an extended partition on an HDD - or to a partition on a flash
drive (not the flash drive itself) or to a partition on a CD/DVD drive (not
to the whole drive) or to a camera or a card reader. (I've never had a
network, but I understand that they also use "drive" letters.) But we began
to refer to Drive A: way back when we first started to use floppy disks in
the 1970's - and the term really did refer to the whole 67.5 KB diskette.
The name stuck when we added hard disk drives, reserving letters A: and B:
for the typical two floppy drives and assigning Drive C: to THE hard disk.
Then we learned how to divide the hard disk platter into "partitions" and
assign a different letter to each partition. But we continued to use the
term "drive" to refer to each of the partitions, rather than to the entire
disk. When we began to need more than 4 partitions on a single disk, we
created one "extended partition" on the disk; we did not assign a letter to
the extended partition, but we created one or more logical drives in the
extended partition and assigned a "drive" letter to each of those logical
drives. (We now often use the term "volume" to refer to either a primary
partition or a logical drive.) And then came optical drives, flash drives
and all those other "drives".

If you run Disk Management, you will see this clearly in the Graphical View.
Disk 0 might include 2 primary partitions and an extended partition with 3
logical drives. The "drive" letters might be F:, C:, X:, D:, R:... In
other words, the letters are independent of the sequence on the HDD. In
fact, there may not be a Drive C: at all - which blows the mindset I
mentioned, but is perfectly legal.

Vista changed the algorithm for assigning drive letters during Setup. In
WinXP, Setup first assigned Drive C: to the System Partition, which usually
was also the boot volume. (See the oft-cited KB 314470 for the
counterintuitive definitions of "system volume" and "boot volume" - legacy
terms that cause and perpetuate much confusion.) Then it assigned letters
to the other partitions, optical drives, etc. Vista Setup, though, when run
by booting from the Vista DVD, assigns Drive C: to its own boot volume,
which might be the 3rd partition on the second HDD! And then it assigns
other letters in sequence, starting over with the first primary partition on
Disk 0, so it is quite probable that in a computer that already has an OS
installed, the System Partition will become Drive D:. This will NOT confuse
the computer, or Vista or other Windows installations - or any well-written
utility or application. But it WILL confuse any user who is bound by the
WinXP mindset. They will think it is "weird". :^}

We should always assign each volume a unique name (label), which will be
written to the disk and will be the same, no matter which OS is running, and
no matter what "drive" letter is currently assigned.
</paste>

Thanks for confirming that you have only a single partition on each of your
HDDs. In that configuration, which is very typical, it's hard to see the
distinction between the whole drive and the partition that covers the whole
drive. One analogy might be a house that has only a single big room. When
you enter the house, you enter the room - and when you leave the room,
you're out of the house. But if that house has six rooms with six outside
doors, you can enter Room 1 without even knowing that Room 3 exists. And if
you've never seen a house with more than one room, you might have trouble
picturing one in your mind.

You really need to run Disk Management and study what it tells you about
your 3 HDDs. Hook 'em all up, then boot into Vista (or WinXP or whichever
Windows is available) and run Disk Management. The easiest way is to just
press Start, type "diskmgmt.msc" and press Enter. Maximize the window and
the Status column so that you can see which is the System and Boot
volume(s). The Help file here is loaded with good information, but it has
some flaws. First, this Help covers the entire Microsoft Management Console
(MMC) and you want to focus on just the Disk Management parts. Second, it
is organized as a reference, not as a text or tutorial, so you can't just
start at the beginning and read straight through. And, third, it covers
some advanced features that you and I don't need to know yet (like GPT disks
and dynamic volumes), so we have to kind of "read around" those parts. But
an hour spent in this Help file will tell you more than I can about how your
hard disks are organized and can be used.

> The 3rd volume is a Seagate Baracuda
> 500GB this is the one I propose installing and putting XP on.

No. That HDD is not a "volume". Once you use Disk Management to create a
partition on it, that partition will be a "volume". That volume can be any
size up to 500 GB, the whole HDD. But WinXP doesn't need nearly that much
room.

If it were my system, I would first create a small partition (5 GB is way
more than big enough, but you have "more disk space than you'll ever need",
right?) that I could use for a System Partition, but leave it formatted and
empty; for now it's just a place holder. Then create a second partition; 30
GB is more than plenty; name it "WinXP Pro"; assign it any available letter
that you like, let's say "X" for XP; format it NTFS. Now, while still in
Vista, insert the WinXP CD-ROM and run its Setup.exe to install WinXP to
your new Drive X:.

Caveat: I've not installed WinXP over Win7. Which WinXP you have? Is SP3
included? Even SP3 does not know how to integrate with Vista or Win7. With
any version of WinXP, you probably will need to boot from the Vista DVD
later and let it repair the System Partition - because you are violating the
Golden Rule (newest system LAST) that I mentioned in my first post.

Now, reboot. It SHOULD start booting from your System Partition (still the
only partition on your first HDD, which has Vista installed) and present the
bootmgr menu with two choices (earlier and Vista). Choose Vista and verify
that Vista still starts properly. Then Restart. This time, choose the
"earlier" version of Windows. WinXP should load and proceed to the familiar
WinXP desktop. (Now you have the usual installation tasks, including all
the Windows Updates, drivers, etc., that have to be dealt with to have a
working WinXP SP3 system.)

Let us know, step by step, what you try and, verbatim, any error messages or
other problems you encounter.

RC


"DavidG" <DavidG@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:ACB2E33C-43C5-40D7-AF1F-0B5AB6B43734@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Hi R. C.
>
> Thanks for your support to this point. For better or for worse I have
> complete confidence in what you are telling me :) . I'm probably > having a
> gradual awakening rather than an "Aha" experience. But this is good. > My
> replies happen at what may seem to be weird hours because I'm in
> Australia.
>
> I currently have 2 HDDs in my machine. 1 is a 500GB WD with Vista
> installed
> on it, and the other is a 750GB Samsung which is simply a passive file
> storage volume (all my data files). The 3rd volume is a Seagate > Baracuda
> 500GB this is the one I propose installing and putting XP on. All > three
> drives have a single partition. The only reason I'm putting in the > extra
> HDD
> is because of the negatives I've heard about 2 OSs on 1 drive. Am I
> misled?
>
> I'm not sure what other details are relevant to tell you in terms of my
> system configuration? I can tell you that amid all the instructions I
> purchased a copy of VistaBootPro, which I now understand restores the
> settings of the Vista bootloader, is that right? Looking at your
> instructions I may not need it.
>
> One other question,
>
>> Step 2: Leave the first HDD connected, with the System Partition on >> it -
>> and WinXP somewhere on that HDD, too. (I would prefer it in a second
>> partition, rather than have its boot volume share the system >> partition,
>> but
>> that point is optional and does not change what happens next.)
>
> When you say "first HDD connected" you mean the one with the newly
> installed
> XP on it, correct?
>
> If it is going to be less risk, I don't mind trying a second partition > on
> the Vista volume. (Save myself a HDD). I've never done either
> operations.
> With one drive I would have 500GB or less to play with, I could do > divide
> up
> 300GB to Vista and 200GB to XP say. The only reason I want XP at all > is
> so I
> can use Office 2003 without having clashes with Office 2007.
>
> Does it help that I now have VistaBootPro? or it doesn't matter.
> Anyway, I will be doing this work over the weekend here and I will
> definitely be giving feedback and posting to this thread. Everyone has
> helped in their own way.
> Thanks for you patience.
>
> Thanks for now
> David G
>
> "R. C. White" wrote:
>
>> Hi, David.
>>
>> > I'm probably thick as a brick where this is
>> > concerned.
>>
>> It's called "mindset" - and we ALL have experienced it. :>(
>>
>> We all have known the "Aha!" moment when the "light bulb" turns on.
>> Immediately, what was so complex a moment ago is now as clear as a >> bell.
>> ;<)
>>
>> > It seems too simple that I
>> > just disconnect the already installed Vista drive, then plug in the
>> > blank
>> > HDD
>> > and install XP as per normal. Is this part correct???
>>
>> Yes, it's just that simple, to this point.
>>
>> > Once the XP
>> > installation is complete it seems to be that once BOTH OSs are
>> > installed,
>> > then the fun and games begins, is that true?
>>
>> Not quite.
>>
>> All you really need to do then is to update the startup files on your
>> first
>> HDD. You need for Vista Setup.exe to write its files there while
>> preserving
>> the WinXP startup files - and to create a menu to let you choose. (In
>> all
>> your posts so far, David, you have not yet told us how many partitions
>> are
>> on each HDD. Our job would be easier if we knew such basic facts >> about
>> your
>> system. For now, I'm assuming a single partition on each HDD.)
>>
>> Step 2: Leave the first HDD connected, with the System Partition on >> it -
>> and WinXP somewhere on that HDD, too. (I would prefer it in a second
>> partition, rather than have its boot volume share the system >> partition,
>> but
>> that point is optional and does not change what happens next.)
>>
>> Step 3: Connect your second HDD (with Vista and a second System
>> Partition
>> on it).
>>
>> Step 4: Boot from your Vista DVD and click Repair your computer. On >> the
>> next screen, click Startup Repair. As a part of the repair, Vista >> will
>> detect the existing WinXP and include the "earlier" version option in >> the
>> startup menu.
>>
>> Repair should know to fix the first HDD, but it might do the second
>> instead.
>> That's OK. You can just set your BIOS to boot from the second HDD
>> instead
>> of the first. The computer will be just as happy that way. ;<)
>>
>> > I am new to this but the only way I'll learn is to do it myself.
>>
>> Yep! One thing for sure: You won't know until you try. A dozen more
>> newsgroup exchanges will leave you still wondering - and without a
>> working
>> dual boot system. Do it - and then let us know what happened. You
>> shouldn't have any problems, but we're here if you do. ;<)
>>
>> RC
>>
>> "DavidG" <DavidG@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:B0906973-90F8-483A-A416-EFA6293CF0F9@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > Hi R. C.
>> >
>> > I've read over your thread a number of times and it is beginning to
>> > sink
>> > in.
>> > I am new to this but the only way I'll learn is to do it myself. >> > I'm
>> > just
>> > worried about the system not booting at all. If I slip up >> > somewhere.
>> > I
>> > don't think I am thick but I'm probably thick as a brick where this >> > is
>> > concerned.
>> >
>> > No one has said either yes or no to the proposed installation as
>> > described

.

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