Re: Object Rexx to become Open Source

From: Al Dunbar [MS-MVP] (alan-no-drub-spam_at_hotmail.com)
Date: 10/17/04 

Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 13:27:33 -0600

"Gerry Hickman" <gerry666uk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:eicECI%23sEHA.2864@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
> Hi Al,
>
> >>1. It's proprietary.
> >
> > So is WSH, yet you are posting here...
>
> We were talking "languages", WSH is just an interface to the o/s. But
> forgetting that, surely you are not disputing the importance of open
> standards and open-source? I can assure you Microsoft are monitoring it
> very closely.

Granted WSH is not a language. But if you use one piece of technology that
*is* proprietary (perhaps because it supports a favourite language of
yours), then saying a particular language is bad because "it is proprietary"
is less of a knock against it than you would like it to be.

> > If you call it a beginner's language because beginner's are able to pick
it
> > up quickly, then the knock against JScript would be that, because it is
> > difficult for beginner's to pick up quickly, fewer will get anywhere
with
> > it. Perhaps if we all went back to punch cards things will be difficult
> > enough to make you happy.
>
> No, I would not be happy if it was more difficult. What I'm saying is
> that you can spend five minutes extra on day one, and save five _hours_
> a few years down the line.

If, as you say, that is true, then I would readily concede that JScript is a
worthy language for one to consider adding to his arsenal. Note that I have
never said that JScript was bad or even not as good a language as VBScript;
I am only disagreeing with you that VBScript is as terrible as you say it
is. This isn't a language flame war (at least I am not waging one ;-).

> > In some environments (WSH and IE, for two) vbscript can use properties
and
> > methods of objects based on classes, or COM components in binary or
> > VBScript/XML format. While this may not be as sophisticated an homage to
OO
> > as provided by some other scripting languages, I have found it a
significant
> > improvement over functions and subs for the work I do with it. Of
course, I
> > still use functions too...
>
> Well we'll have to disagree there, and I certainly hope you are not
> using VBScript in IE! Even Microsoft are not that foolish. Try "view
> source" on any of their pages and you'll see it's JScript all the way. I
> also can't imagine using VBScript for XML??

Believe it or not, the only script I have ever posted in a web page on the
internet happens to be in JavaScript. If I were to have a closer look at our
own intranet, I expect JScript would far outweigh VBScript in volume - and
that is not because we even allow browsers other than IE.

But our official standard scripting language for such things as logon
scripts and administrative scripting is VBScript/WSH. Those doing this
scripting seem more comfortable in VBScript. Although I know a couple of
guys who would tend to use JScript (because that is what they use on their
intranet site), I find them to be in the minority.

Yes, perhaps things would be better in the long run to adopt JScript over
VBScript. It took years for the organization to switch from kixtart to WSH,
even after having decided to make that switch, so I doubt that a switch to
JScript would happen in my lifetime ;-) And I have enough on my plate
without having to try to convince them of a change that I am not convinced
is worthwhile at present, given there would be no immediate benefits.

> >>4. It does not have try...catch
> >
> > Agreed, that would be nice. The lack has never prevented me from getting
> > script running, though.
>
> But why live in the dark ages (with ugly code) when you can have nirvana?

Well, since I do, there must be a reason, or at least the lack of a reason
to change. Otherwise I would change, now wouldn't I? But *you* don't really
have to know what my reason is for doing what I do, or even appreciate it,
now do you?

One reason: I enjoy coding in VBScript. Would I enjoy coding in JScript?
Possibly, but I don't see that as sufficient reason to either start using it
or stop using VBScript at present.

> >>5. Block handling is poor with things like Wend.
> >
> > While - Wend is most often noted as a deprecated feature by those in the
> > know. I guess they left it in to avoid breaking code.
>
> My point is that a block is one character to begin, and one character to
> end (at least in all grown up languages:))

Yes, understood. There is a classical simplicity to that, I agree. But the
way I code, I find it easier to match up the ends with the begins when they
are specific to each other. Yes, I agree that DO/LOOP stand out from all the
whatever/END whatever constructs. But since I know what that syntax is I
just use it.

> >>6. It's not case sensitive
> >
> > One man's food is another's poison. I like case insensitivity in the
symbol
> > namespace because I sometimes make a mistake with my capitalization. If
it
> > was case sensitive, then I would likely make all variables lower case
only
> > and constants upper case only instead of using case selectively for
> > readability.
>
> What about WMI and ADSI??

I was only talking about case sensitivity in the symbol namespace. VBScript
*is* case sensitive when it comes to string data. I have to use the correct
capitalization for LDAP and WinNT, but if I use createobject instead of
CreateObject, I am not penalized.

> > Moronic? Surely that statement is based more on emotion than on fact.
>
> I guess, it's like looking at a work of art. In PERL and JScript you can
> see artforms in the coding, but in VBScript it's just a horrible mess!:)

And like actual art, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. When I look at my
VBScript code and find it easy to read and with a few elegant subtleties
that have resulted in more compact code, I think it looks fine. You would
differ, and I cannot say you would be wrong to say that you thought it ugly.
But neither of us has the authority to speak in absolutes on this.

> > Too many keywords? But, fortunately for some of us, fewer
key-punctuations
> > than JScript ;-)
>
> I see the punctuation as power. e.g.
>
> return (S_OK) ? true : false;

As would I if I were a JScript afficionado, no doubt. But wait a minute,
that particular construct reminds me of a couple of complete abominations
that existed in Fortran a long time ago, namely the computed goto:

    GOTO (100,200,300,400,500,600) INDEX

and the other, whose name I have forgotten:

    IF (VALUE) 100,200,300

<snip>

> >>10. You have to switch language for client/server
> >
> > Not an issue for those of us that don't do client/server...
>
> Are you saying you don't use web applications or GUI at all? In most
> companies I work in, the web (both internal and external) has become
> core to the business. Even for SysAdmin tasks we use the web a lot for
> monitoring servers and workstations.

Sure we do, but I am not the developer of that stuff. Were I to get
involved, no doubt I would be taking another look at JScript, but knowing
where I fit into our organization, such a change of responsibility is highly
unlikely.

> > I fully agree there, as all too often I have trouble finding something
on
> > VBScript but wind up seeing something completely different on JScript
that
> > coincidentally uses the same terms as my search.
>
> The nice thing with JScript is that there's hardly any keywords, so it's
> hard to go wrong.

I think you will find that both of us code not against the language but
against the problem we are trying to solve. It's us and our tools against
the problem, not us and the problem against the tools.

Do I make syntactical mistakes when I code? Sure I do, but I don't have to
spend a lot of time fixing them.

> > If anything, one might ascribe this lack of documentation to some of the
> > views you express above being held by whomever at MS:
>
> I find this unlikely, more a case that they just threw it up last time
> they worked on it, and never touched it since. We were just lucky that
> the ECMA influence on JScript made the whole thing self-documenting.

LOL. If it is self-documenting, why does the WSH help contain so much help
about the language (to the detriment of VBScripters)?

<snip>

> > Lower line-counts can be a mixed blessing. In fact, those twenty lines
of
> > VBScript could be turned into a single line by changing nineteen newline
> > characters to ":". Not that that would be an improvement...
>
> No, no, no! I mean a fraction of the number of overall chars, not some
> line stretching off the right-hand side of the screen! I'm talking ULTRA
> compact code:)

I knew what you meant... But now consider written Chinese. Given that one
character can represent a complete word, phrase, or concept, it must be
ULTRA compact as well. Funny that it is so difficult to learn.

> > How this would influence me to switch from vbscript to PERL for my admin
> > scripting, I'll never know.
>
> The point is, that most of us here don't just do "admin scripting", and
> don't want to have to switch languages every five minutes! Of course
> (being the WSH group) it would be fair to request we should ONLY talk
> about admin scripting while on this group, but that's another story...

I haven't seen the stats on who here does what, so you might be right. And
as for forcing anyone to switch languages every five minutes, I have no
particular desire to impose anything on anyone else, or denigrate them for
their choices.

As to what is allowed here, it seems to me that a lot is beyond the scope of
just "WSH", and there seems (to me at least) to be a lot of VSBcript-only
discussion. Perhaps some of the language-specific, or usage-specific stuff
should be relegated to the appropriate language-specific groups.

> > You have certainly given mayayana some of the reasons that VB gets
derision.
> > But much of it seems to boil down to personal preference. Granted, one
> > should give the personal preference of the knowledgeable serious
> > consideration. But you weaken your case in this with the fanatical tone.
>
> I don't see it as personal preference. It's all about the future of
> enterprise computing. I'm looking at Microsoft, IBM, Sun, day-in,
> day-out, because when a fat contract comes my way in three years time I
> want to make sure I'm ahead of the game.

No doubt you will be. How many of the rest of us come along with you on that
ride is likely going to be a lower number than would be the case if your
comments were a little less subjective.

> > For
> > example, if VBScript's variant variables is a joke, I am wondering what
the
> > punchline is.
>
> I don't remember saying variant variables were a joke?

Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant by this: "The way that data types are
handled makes VB look like a joke, with SCALARS, VECTORS, HASHES and ARRAYS,
that all talk to each other when you change just one prefix character." I
had thought you were putting down the lack of strong typing in the language.

/Al

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