Re: Browsers browsers

Roland Hall wrote:
"Kieren Evans" <"k_e_news[at]yahoo.REMOVEALLCAPITALSco[dot]uk"> wrote in message news:u63zfbwXFHA.3320@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
: Roland Hall wrote:
: > "Randy Webb" wrote in message news:WaGdnQUEddeNnA3fRVn-vg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
: > : Roland Hall wrote:
: > : >
: > : > It's all MSFT's fault? Is that what you're saying?
: > : >
: > : > When the standards committee gets off their ass and does something
: > perhaps
: > : > then we can envision standards. It's an inactive action committee,
: > a.k.a. a
: > : > useless piece of plastic.
: > :
: > : And what "action" do you propose?
: >
: > Any?
: >
: > : If people would code to the existing
: > : standards, let IE break on Standards Code, then people would bitch to
: > : MS, then MS might see it in their best interest to try to adhere to the
: > : standards. Until then, MS has no reason to even attempt to adhere to any
: > : standards, hence they create their own.
: >
: > If we only waited on the standards committee, the wheel never would have
: > been invented.
: >
: > : > Quirksmode is biased and FF is a POS and they're down to what, one
: > developer
: > : > in his spare time now? Most of the time working with FF is trying to
: > get it
: > : > to return a fricken error other than just ignoring the part it doesn't
: > like
: > : > and continuing.
: > :
: > : Example of FF ignoring error code? Or do you just not know how to open
: > : the JS console? The error messages in FF beat IE hands down.
: >
: > I wasn't aware I needed another window open to see a scripting error, which
: > then opens in another window to see the line with the error. That is
: > different than IE which offers an alert instead of requiring me to open up a
: > log file.
: >
: > That explains why they don't support vbscript, it would take another window.
: > How do you make it open it up in a tab? Isn't that one of the biggest raves
: > to use FF? They also don't support JScript, but MSFT, supports Javascript.
: > What if MSFT required the tag be JScript instead of also supporting
: > javascript? Who is being unreasonable now?
: >
: > Nowhere I have found in the help does it tell you this is required. There
: > also doesn't appear to be a shortcut key, which means after I visit each
: > page, I need to pick it off the menu OR keep another window open because
: > they are unable to offer me a way to have the console popup on error, or is
: > that another menu item I'm not aware of?
: >
:
: Not sure about the popup on error functionality built-in BUT one of the
: many features of FF is it's extensibility... the web developer toolbar
: extension is a must-have for any web developer
: http://chrispederick.com/work/firefox/webdeveloper/
: has settings to make it popup on error or on warning, has a quick and
: easy button added to the toolbar too ;)
:
: > I open up help and I got to "Help for Internet Explorer Users..." where I
: > find Mozilla Firefox's Features. One would think that might be at the top
: > of the list, rather than at the bottom. However it says:
: >
: > Pop-up Window Controls: Lets you allow or suppress both popup and pop-under
: > windows. (I'll come back to this one)
: >
: > Download Manager: Organizes your downloads by storing them in a single
: > window to minimize clutter. You have full access to download statistics
: > without using unnecessary multiple windows for each download.
: >
: > ... but I don't have that option with the javascript console. It is an
: > unnecessary window that adds to the clutter that should not be required to
: > see a simple error. At the very least, an option to allow it to popup on
: > errors should be available.
: >
: > You may notice I have copy/pasted the text from the help. However, after
: > selecting the text and right-clicking, copy is not an option. I had to
: > press CTRL+C. I guess it relates to the javascript console.
: >
: > The Help for IE users section is pretty much useless except I find this
: > interesting:
: >
: > Internet Explorer Firefox
: > Internet Options Options
: > Temporary Internet Files Cache
: > Favorites Bookmarks
: > Address Bar Location Bar
: > Refresh Reload
: > Links Bar Bookmarks Toolbar
: > Copy Shortcut Copy Link Location
: >
: > ... anything to be different.
: >
: > There is no Go button, but I can add it. I'm surprised it's not called
: > Surf.
: >
:
: This was done to help IE users migrate easier...
:
: > There is a New Tab button which is handy once, to open the first tab. Then
: > I can just double-click the tab header. In IE, I can hold down the shift
: > key when I click a link to get a new window. I can do the same thing in FF.
: > How do I open a link in a new tab as easy? Why doesn't it open in a new tab
: > rather than a new window? Why isn't it a selectable option in Options?
:
: CTRL-click opens link in new tab [HEAVILY documented]
: SHIFT-click (same as IE)
: MIDDLE-CLICK - open link in new tab if a link is under mouse pointer
:
: >
: > So, I decide to start at the top of the Help file and work my way through.
: > Remember the Popup Window Controls I said I would come back to? And let's
: > not forget the non-clutter feature of using a single window.
: >
: > I click on "Mozilla FireFox Help". In the right pane, I see a very liberal
: > use of white space, almost ridiculously so. I see a link which has an arrow
: > and a globe image. Being the savvy user I am except for that javascript
: > console thang, I click on "Troubleshooting" because I can't see the errors
: > for my javascript. (O:= Maybe this will tell me how to troubleshoot FF?!
: > A pop-under window comes up and at this point, the help window goes modal,
: > at least with regard to the FF windows. I guess the pop-under feature only
: > works against others. It didn't replace the FF window I already had open,
: > it opened a new one which means I now have three windows. How many
: > unnecessary windows does it take to define clutter? I have to minimize the
: > Help window to see the other FF windows and access them. I can click other
: > non-FF windows I have open and they come to the front, just not FF windows.
: > I wonder if the first bit of help would be how to avoid or work around this
: > current situation? Nope. Troubleshooting actually takes me to a FAQ and
: > neither the new issue or the javascript console seem to be listed. Hmmm...
: >
: > I'm sure these are all benefits because they're "different" than IE but I
: > just don't see how helpful or user-friendly they are.
: >
: > And of course you gotta' love this. "IE is tied to the OS and supports
: > VBScript and ActiveX which makes it unsafe. FF is safe because it's not
: > tied to the OS, does not support VBScript or ActiveX."
: >
: > Let's see how effective that is...
: > http://kotp.blogspot.com/2005/05/flaws-found-in-firefox_10.html
: >
: > "useless piece of plastic"
:
: ok lets look at the history of those two bugs you linked to:
: discovered on monday may 9th, 2005 these flaws were rated critical by
: secunia, by thursday 12th may, 2005 a new release of firefox was put out
: to the public which fixes those two very same flaws.
: 4 days of extensive testing on many different systems, OS's and
: configurations

You're missing the point. FF claimed this could never happen because they're not tied to the OS. We all know that was a BS marketing ploy, not to mention begging blogs to put links to FireFox. MSFT has never begged me to put a link on anything back to them. Perhaps commercial marketing has some advantages?!

: -= vs =-
:
: months of waiting for MS to see _IF_ they will fix a bug, if not years

It's a simple application. How hard could it be to work out a fix? IE is tied in with the OS so it's more of a risk which would explain why it takes longer to work out a fix in some cases. Isn't that a big promotion for FF pundits? You can't have it both ways.

Mozilla: MSFT, you're cheating by not adding our product to your product.
MSFT: Ours it tied to the OS. It's different.
Mozilla: That's BS. It's just a browser.
MSFT: No it's not. (neener neener)
Mozilla's other face: After 80+ name changes, we have decided to use FireFox as a name. It's better than IE because IE it tied to the OS. (This is not to be interpreted as being in agreement with MSFT on any subject. We're different, in every way. Since FF is not tied to the OS, the underlying OS is safe even if FF is ever compromised, which will never happen because we're not weenie programmers.)
News: FF compromised allowing attacker to run code as user.
MSFT: (neener neener)
Mozilla's other face: We fixed it fast and MSFT takes forever. More comments against MSFT continue...
Public: But you (Mozilla) said this would never happen. Sounds like a case of Wag the Dog.

: Firefox 1.0 was launched in November '04, Firefox 1.1 will be released
: before IE7 will be released [date unconfirmed but IE7 _WILL_ be after FF
: 1.1]
:
: who wins?

The attackers.

I also love the marketing. 50 million copies downloaded, which includes, repeats for updates and does not compare to the percentage of people who actually use it.

I'm not so much an IE supporter as I am anti-FF. Why does crashing one tab crash all other tabs? If I'm holding down the CTRL key when one tab crashes, will it keep the others from crashing?


you arent taking into account the countless people who download and distribute via non-mozilla server means (as in CDs or rehosting)
and btw about crashing... IE -for me- has crashed more than firefox and ive been using firefox for about the same amount of time as i have IE [on this machine] crashing one IE window takes them all down, just like firefox, IE however manages to take explorer.exe with it [due to OS intergration]

also, with all the FUD coming from various MS sources you fail to see why pheonix was changed to firebird then was changed to firefox... another products named those names were out there, hence name change so as to not breach copyrights etc.

mozilla has never claimed their software is perfect, as no software can be perfect... BUGS WILL BE DISCOVERED, except the difference between open and closed source projects is that open source projects can be fixed a lot lot easier as thousands of developers or the public can download and edit the source code, patching it and sending to mozilla the patches or code changes that fix the bugs.

The many months waiting for MS to release a patch for IE is due to the OS intergration as you said, but that inherently makes it less secure.
This is due to the fact that as i said before when my IE went down, Windows went down and this was just a crash, not even a hacking attempt...

when firefox goes down [if it does as on some systems it doesnt or rarely after years] it is just the application, there is no way into the inner core of the OS

also, firefox has never "begged" people to put links up, the people who do it do it of their own accord, because they care for the product which is, as most open-source based projects are, community-based.


--
Good Luck,
Hope This Helped

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Cheers,
Kieren
.