Re: No task to finish on the weekend?

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I've experimented with the approach you've taken with lumping the 2 -10 hour shift groups into one group and every time I've tried it always runs me up against a wall and produces invalid schedules. Certainly you don't list every individual welder and the foreman is the persoin to organize the workdays of his team and decide which of his team he's going to send where each day. But I've found it still requires me to split out the resources by shift and I need to know we have 10 day shift welders and 6 night shift welders available for assignment. When discussing the requirments needed to get the job done on time with the foreman, I might ask him to put 2 day shift and 2 night shift workers on it so it would go around the clock. Or if your inspector who only works days needed to be onsite as the welding was done, I'd let the foreman know that he only need to put day shift guys on it and let the welding stop overnight (since the inspector isn't there they couldn't work anyway). Doing it that way, the task in my project schedule will properly adjust its timing to reflect whether a mix of day shift and night shift workers are on it or or only the day shift workers. The end date is going to be very different if it only proceeds when day shift welders are there versus it's being worked by both day and night shift welders and I think the PM should be able to advise the welding foreman how he needs to deploy his workers to best meet the project's objectives. Lumping the shifts together into a single group of welders working in aggregate 24 hours gives very distorted task timings in comparison.
--
Steve House [MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs




"DavidC" <DavidC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:952DCA63-88E7-4E08-B23E-7FF068AFC951@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Hi Steve,

Interesting how the same question can hav different interpretations. My
reading was that the task was a seven day task and only some resources were
restricted to five day weeks. Your point is well taken and valid.

Yes in my project we have two shifts of 10 hours, seven days per week. I
guess where I differ, is that rather than assigning Joe and Bill to do the
welding, I simply assign 2 welders. Then as long as there are sufficient
welders in the pool it then is up to the individual supervisors to assign
specific tasks to a specific person. Certainly the individual will get time
off in any seven day week but that roster is handled outside of Project.
Also makes it easier to handle the situation when Joe decides not to turn up
for whatever reason. The other aspect of this project that makes seven day
weeks more palatable is that is a 32 day project (we hope).

Thank you for your comments they are welcome as yet another thought and
approach and that is always good.

Regards

DavidC

"Steve House [Project MVP]" wrote:

Oh I know all about weekend work. Back in the 60's & 70's I worked in the
airline industry and I went for a 5 year stretch before I had enough
seniority to bid a shift with weekends off. What I was trying to say is
that people always have regularly scheduled working hours and it's smart to
only schedule project tasks during the normal working hours of the resources
doing it, whatever that may be. If it's important for work on a task to
take place on a weekend you assign the task to someone who's regular shift
includes weekends, not a M-F person on the hope they'll be willing to work
extra for you. Uttster seemed to be saying the resource in question worked
M-F but could be counted on working over the weekend, outside of their
normal working hours, if a task started too late in the week to finish
before the weekend arrived. I think it's extremely dangerous to your
schedule to assume they'll do that voluntarily and to build that assumption
into the offical plan and at the very least abusive of the worker if not
downright a violation of labour laws to mandate they do it involuntarily. I
take it as a given that one must always respect the dignity of the worker
and both the letter and the spirit of the law as the price of being allowed
to stay in the game, even if doing so means ther project's schedule is
longer and budget is higher than one might otherwise be able to achieve.

When I read your statement that you have a group that works 2 10-hour shifts
7 days a week I have to wonder when they rest. To me a "group" means all
members of the group work identical hours and days off. So when you say
that, I see people who work 20 hours per day and never get a day off and
that can't be real any place outside of the Gulag. Don't you mean you have
a group that works 10 hour day with sat sun off and another group that works
10 hour days with Mon Tue off and yet another that works 10 hour days with
Tue Wed off etc etc etc? I try to teach my classes that they need as a
minimum however many base calendars are required to cover every unique
combination of general working hours, days off, and stautory holidays that
the resources may have. I don't suggest necessarily a base calendar for
people who arrive at 8am and another for those arriving at 9am - resource
calendars can take care of those minor deviations - but if we cover 24/7 by
working day, swing and grave shifts, some people wth Fri Sat off, other with
Sat Sun off, and others with Sun Mon off and have some resources here in
Ontario and others next door in Quebec (different statutory holidays) you
have at the very least 18 calendars (3 basic shifts * 3 RDO patterns * 2
jurisdictions). Since I'm ultimately going to have to get the task
assignments detailed down to the point of assigning Joe who works 10am-7pm
with Wed Thur off to a task and the consequences to my schedule of that
assignment will be different than if I assign Bill who works 8am-5pm with
Sat Sun off, I can't just lump Joe and Bill together into a group that works
8am to 7pm 7 days a week when viewed in the aggregate even if they both
happen to have the same job skills and are otherwise interchangeable. I
have to split them out and when I assign resources I have to think whether I
should give the task in question to a guy with weekends off or to the guy
with mid-week days off.
--
Steve House [MVP]
MS Project Trainer & Consultant
Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs


"DavidC" <DavidC@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:83D8902E-12C1-4C36-A127-B2652E208300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Hi Steve,
>
> With respect, but there are industries (construction and maintenance)
> where
> some people do work weekends as a norm, yet others do not. The project > I
> am
> working on now has one group working 2 ten hour shifts seven days per
> week,
> and other working only one ten hour shift for seven days per week,and > then
> there are the 'authorities' who only work the normal five day week. It > is
> therefore quite important to allow those tasks which can and will work
> through a weekend, yet those tasks resourced by people not working the
> 'project' hours are scheduled to suit the calendar of the 'non project
> resource'.
>
> You are correct about not being able to compel when people work, but if > a
> project requires weekend work then that is what prevails. A good > example
> is
> a shutdown and major overhaul on a power plant. The maintenance people
> will
> work all the hours necessary, but try and get an inspector from one of > the
> government agencies to do their inspection outside the 40 hour week.
> Hence
> the need to have resources on different calendars.
>
> Regards
>
> DavidC
>
> "Steve House [Project MVP]" wrote:
>
>> The finish date of a task is NOT its due date. It's the predicted >> time
>> the
>> resource doing the work is able to put down his tools, steps back, >> looks
>> at
>> his completed widget and says with a satisifed expression "There, I'm
>> done!"
>> What happens in your plan if the person in your example who needs 3 >> days
>> to
>> finish that document starting Thursday elects NOT to work extra on the
>> weekend but chooses instead to finish it up on Monday, leaving the >> review
>> document task to start on Tuesday instead of the Monday that would >> result
>> if
>> the first resource worked overtime? I strongly suggest you never base >> a
>> plan on the assumption that people will work overtime or outside of
>> "official" working hours. That might be your corporate culture, true
>> enough, but if you plan assuming it's always going to be true, the >> time
>> you
>> need it most is the time the resource is going to say "Hey, it's my
>> wedding
>> anniverary this weekend and my spouse will kill me if I work OT so >> sorry
>> about that, ain't gonna do it!" And there's nothing you can do about
>> it -
>> he's within his rights to refuse and there's potential hugely >> expensive
>> legal repercussions if he suffers any negative consequence for that
>> refusal.
>> IMHO, never plan based on the idea that people will work anything >> except
>> the
>> legal official workday - never assume voluntary overtime and reserve
>> assigned overtime for those situations where you need it to get out of >> an
>> emergency problem that has materialized. Contrary to the commericals >> on
>> TV,
>> no one ever gives more than 100%.
>> -- >> Steve House [MVP]
>> MS Project Trainer & Consultant
>> Visit http://www.mvps.org/project/faqs.htm for the FAQs
>>
>>
>> "uttster" <uttster@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:13CAC423-1289-4118-9778-FEFAE0B0A1D8@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> > Thanks for responding (both of you).
>> > I am using this to track a project where actual documents are due on
>> > the
>> > "finish date". no one is in the office on the weekends, but if >> > someone
>> > needs
>> > 4 days to finish a document, they can work over the weekend, but it
>> > will
>> > not
>> > be read/next step cannot start until that monday.
>> > example: task finish document - 3 days begin thurs end sat
>> > next task: review document - 2 days (this task cannot start on a
>> > sunday,
>> > it
>> > must start on monday)
>> >
>> > so i need to have the weekends as working days, but a subsequent >> > task
>> > cannot
>> > start on a sat or sunday.
>> >
>> > will this have to be a manual fix in each situation?
>> > "JackD" wrote:
>> >
>> >> Yep, I agree with Rod..
>> >> You can work around this a bit by modelling things differently. If >> >> it
>> >> requires some other step which can't complete over the weekend, >> >> insert
>> >> that
>> >> other (short) task with a Mon-Fri calendar and set it as a >> >> successor
>> >> to
>> >> your
>> >> weekend work task.
>> >>
>> >> -- >> >> -Jack ... For Microsoft Project information and macro examples >> >> visit
>> >> http://masamiki.com/project
>> >> or http://zo-d.com/blog/index.html
>> >> ..
>> >> "Rod Gill" <rod AT project-systems DOT co DOT nz> wrote in message
>> >> news:%23sy3YTnMGHA.2036@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > That doesn't make sense!! If a task finishes at 11:00 on a >> >> > Saturday,
>> >> > then
>> >> it
>> >> > should be updated as finishing at that time. Otherwise your whole
>> >> > schedule
>> >> > becomes a series of fix ups and partial fiction.
>> >> >
>> >> > Perhaps you had better explain why and what actually needs to >> >> > happen
>> >> > on
>> >> the
>> >> > Monday for tasks finished on the weekend.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -- >> >> >
>> >> > Rod Gill
>> >> > Project MVP
>> >> > Visit www.msproject-systems.com for Project Companion Tools and >> >> > more
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > "uttster" <uttster@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> >> > news:6E8EE83D-CF81-42B3-8D6A-3CFBCF9397C0@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >> > > Hello,
>> >> > > How do I set Sat and Sun as working time, but not allow any >> >> > > task
>> >> > > to
>> >> > > be
>> >> > > due/finish on a Sat or Sun? So the task can take place over >> >> > > the
>> >> weekend,
>> >> > > but
>> >> > > it must finish on a Monday.
>> >> > > Thanks
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>



.

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