Re: upgrade to WM 6.1

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Good discussion. Can't really disagree with the points/concepts. Reality, though has a lot of accountants and lawyers involved. Maybe with MS buying Danger we'll see a WM Hiptop or Sidekick (I'm not holding my breath), and then they can/could provide Windows Mobile Update to new releases/patches.

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Sven
MVP Mobile Devices
"Todd All***" <elecconnec@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:fu6u3r$6dq$1@xxxxxxxxxxx
At 16 Apr 2008 16:46:47 -0600 Sven wrote:

What? There was some instability?

Absolutely. Sadly, however, even the worst cooked ROMs I've tried were no
less stable than the worst carrier issued ROMs! (My experience here is
soley with my T-Mobile MDA. It's original official "1.x" ROM was the
absolute worst ever installed on my device. I really hated my MDA until
the 2.x updates turned up.)

You mean the basement chefs didn't thoroughly test their build?

Bizarrely enough, many are thoroughly beta tested by the community.

There was no 1-800 number for support?

Nope. (Not that the 800#s provided by carriers and OEMs get you much
besides finger pointing anyway in my experience, otherwise what are we all
doing here?... ;-)

You just had to try several to get one that 'was right'?

Actually I had to try several to get the right mix of features for _me_.
Most of the "cookers" build for themselves and what they consider to be the
"ideal" feature set, including dozens of useless freeware utilities,
ridiculous sci-fi and anime-based themes, ringtones, etc.

Some simply try to emulate an actual carrier or OEM ROM, without the
extraneous fluff.


What if you had gotten halfway through and the device froze?

It's a risk I assumed with an out-of-warranty "obsolete" device. Cooked
ROMs install via the same utility "real" ones do, and the actual risk of
problems is fairly small. Technically, I suppose, I'd be running the same
risk installing a "real" ROM today since my device is out of warranty.

I'm sure you could have mailed your bricked device to WMHXRDude
and he would have been happy to replace it for you.


No, nor would I have expected to. Again, I'm not sure how likely HTC or T-
Mobile would replace a 27 month-old device if I had waited until now to
install the official AKU2 ROM and somehow bricked it.

Again, there's a risk, but in my mind, if a successful "upgrade" improves
the device, the risk is acceptable. Neither official WM5 ROM fixed the
IMAP bugs in WM5. Neither got A2DP to work properly. Neither fully
addressed the memory leaks.

There is more to an OEM/Carrier providing an OS upgrade than cooking
up a new ROM and posting it for anyone to try.

Agreed. My point was only that if a bunch of ameteurs "reverse
engineering" this stuff can get it 90% right on the first try, there's no
excuse that the guys who actually do it for a living can't do it without a
major R&D investment. Part of my rant is about lack of upgrade path, but
part is the fact that OEMs and carriers don't seem to be able to shake out
the bugs on the first or second try. It's absolutely embarrassing that
some of these cooked ROMs can make a device MORE stable than an official
one!

My "cooked ROM" experience goes back to my earliest days with my MDA. The
original ROM was very buggy with a _serious_ memory leak. It actually
needed resetting once or twice a day to reclaim the lost memory. Searching
the xda site for help, I ran across a guy who took the then just-released T-
Mo UK Version of the AKU2 update for the MDA and replaced the T-Mo UK
customizations with the existing US version's. Suddenly my device was
greatly improved- the memory leaks were mitigated to the point that I could
live with them, the device booted MUCH faster, and was finally (almost) a
pleasure to use.

It took at least two or three months after that for an "official" USA
update to arrive from T-Mo. I probably would've gone back to my old Dell
Axim and bluetooth Symbian-based Nokia combo I'd used previously if I had
had to wait that long for relief! (I experienced the wonderful "don't
blame us, blame them" circle of support in the early days with the device.)
I switched from the "cooked" UK ROM to the newer official US one.

When the hacked WM6 ROMs showed up, I tried one for a weekend just as a
preview of things to come knowing they weren't ready for primetime- things
like the camera and MMS didn't work, etc. After seeing what WM6 was all
about, I happily went back to the official T-Mo USA WM5 AKU2, and waited
for an official WM6 that never came.

Months later, I tried a two or three various cooked WM6 ROMs that had a few
scattered bugs, but nothing deal-breaking (ringtone randomly resetting to
WinMo default, backlight timeout resetting to 10 seconds, etc.) before
finding one that was as stable as the real T-Mo AKU2. This one should last
me until I replace this device in a few months. The only real bug is the
occasional device lockup when turning on WiFi. I would consider that a big
deal if the official T-Mo ROM(s) didn't have the exact same bug!

I'm not saying I support the lack of upgrades, just that is not as cut
and dried as you make it sound.

Agreed- I'm just venting my frustration with the whole "Tinkers-to-Evers-to-
Chance" distribution method of Windows Mobile from MS to manufacturer to
carrier.

There are support issues to be considered.

Absolutely. However, most HTC devices are pretty similar- are the majority
of support issues for, say, an AT&T 8525 which received a WM6 upgrade, that
different from an 8125 which didn't? The majority of support issues seem
to be software rather than hardware related. I just think it's something
they could handle if they cared, which they don't- OS upgrades don't sell
new devices.

Companies do consider ROI too, and the ROI on this is hard to calculate.

Agreed. One thing is certain though- HTC makes more money from new device
sales that they ever would from upgrades. If the WinMo licensing method
was used for desktop Windows, I wonder if Dell, HP et al would ever rollout
Windows service packs or just suggest we replace our PCs each year!

You are comparing customer impression against hard dollars for
development, distribution and support. So, as someone else pointed
out, if the same hardware is going to be continued with the new OS,
it is more likely that the earlier releases of that hardware will get the
benefit of that sunk cost.

Yeah (that someone was me.) I got lucky with the Dell Axim X5- it was the
only one of my half-dozen PPCs to ever see a full version upgrade (2002 to
2003.) For $30 I had a greatly improved device that lasted me three years
of continuous use (one with 2K2, two with 2K3)- a Windows CE device
longevity record for me! (I still have it as a backup to use whenever my
MDA has had to be replaced under warranty- once for a bad touchscreen, once
because the stylus holder stopped holding the stylus!)

I learned a long time ago not to expect the WM device I buy to ever
be anything but what it was when I bought it. An upgrade is the cherry
on top, not an entitlement. Results in less disappointment and indignation.



True. I guess I mind less when devices change significantly from year to
year- I could hardly blame my MIPS-based Casio E-115 with a non-rewritable
ROM from not accepting an ARM-only PPC 2002 update, but when HTC
continually releases different models of nearly identical devices with
nearly identical feature sets, it's hard to believe that "ground up"
software design and integration is going into each device, particularly
when most of these devices seem to have bugs or deficiencies.


I agree a more modular approach may resolve some of this. I'm not sure
it isn't already sufficiently modular.


I assume it is, otherwise the ROM cookers wouldn't have a prayer in getting
their "creations" to work. They're essentially just stuffing the new OS
and included apps over the old, leaving the original hardware drivers and
device specific apps (i.e. camera software) in place.

Thing is the carriers/OEMs are the OS customer, not us, the end user.

Right, and this is the crux of the problem. It was annoying but manageable
in the standalone PPC days when it was a single middleman- the
manufacturer. Even if we didn't get OS upgrades, we generally got patches
for the most aggregious bugs- my Casio received two or three user-
installable RAM-based patches. My Audiovox Maestro received several PPC2k2
EUU updates (up to EUU4) and Dell released several user installable bug-
fixes and patches in two ways- first as RAM installable patches that were
eventually rolled into future ROM upgrades.

Today, the various carriers muck it up further- even if the OEM actually
releases a new ROM, thecarrier then has to customize it or rubber-stamp it.
For example, my MDA (HTC Wizard) actually received a WM5 AKU3 update- at
least the unbranded HTC version did, which T-Mobile then customized and
released... in Germany only! No other T-Mobile country received the
update, and the MDA was soon discontinued and replaced.


The contracts and agreements made with those folks are what have
to change, and the carriers and OEMs need to agree to the changes.
Thing is mobile devices aren't like desktops. Dell makes money on every
PC they sell. ATT, Sprint, aren't making money on selling you a phone,
they make money selling you a service, so they have a vested interest
in some control over your phone. If you could just upgrade it over the
air...for free...why would you get a new phone from them, with the
additional contract commitment. Just the way it is.


Of course. On the other hand, new hardware features should drive new
purchases- I want to replace my MDA not because it can't run WM6 or 6.1
(because aparently it CAN, illegally/unofficialal) but because I want a
faster processor, more RAM, and internal GPS, like the Tilt, or the
upcoming Velocity Mobile 103 or Sony X1. What I don't want is to shell out
$300 each year to buy essentially the same phone, with the same feature
set, spray painted a different color. (At least AT&T replaced the
Wizard/8125 with the 8525 which added 3G and a faster processor, then the
Tilt with added GPS and double the RAM. T-Mo replaced the MDA with the
Wing- same slow processor, same 2G, same memory, same features, but with
"rubberized" blue paint. Wheee!)


But you were absolutely right with every point you made- thanks for letting
me vent and get some frustration off my chest! It's just that while I love
the Windows Mobile OS, I've been very disappointed with HTC hardware and
support. Sadly they've virtually become the "only game in town" for a
PPC-based phone with a non-square screen. Even the Tilt, which I've played
with, seems clunky and is simply the best of a lousy field of devices. Am
I asking too much to have a PPC phone that's as snappy as my now five year
old Axim X5? Given the competitive pressure from RIM, Apple and Nokia's
Symbian phones, Microsoft needs to crack the whip and improve the caliber
of WM-based devices even if it means designing the devices themselves like
they did with Zune when they saw "Plays For Sure" going nowhere fast. And
these silly HTC UI "overlays" like Touchflow and the Cube aren't going to
help in the long run- a WinMo device should look and feel like a WinMo
device- not hide a perfectly functional and advanced OS behind another
layer of UI and code to make it "simple." There are already "smartphones
for dummies" out there- that's Apple's market! ;-)



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