Re: 'Corrupt' WMP Metadata files

"zachd [MSFT]" wrote:


"Dale" <dale0973@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:07D1F818-1653-46BE-A04D-BBFD68EB362E@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"zachd [MSFT]" wrote:
"Dale" <nospam@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:%23UerF65YHHA.992@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Repeat after me, Zach: "Windows Media Player databases have significant
intrinsic value to my customers. The time and effort that my customers
put
into creating their music databases has signficant intrinsic value. I was
wrong when I said that they had no intrinsic value."

Windows Media Player databases have intrinsic value to WMP users. The time
and effort that WMP users put into creating their music databases has
intrinsic value.

As re: the last bit, I was talking in a specific context. I meant it in
that specific conversational context and wasn't making any attempt to make
any sort of general statement. Case in point was one day later when
somebody said back to you that it was quite OK that the database was rebuilt
because at least it got them going again. I totally agree that these are
valuable treasure troves.

I didn't say they had no intrinsic value. The clearly offhand comment "not
containing any reallly intrinsic value" wasn't a dismissal of all value,
just meant to indicate in my garbled English in a sentence about
end-user-based-call-to-get-them-rolling-again that the unique values that
are only ever present in the library aren't generally extremely useful.
(See below.) Provided you use the Ratings Migration Wizard or write your
Ratings to the Global Star Ratings, the most interesting thing you might
lose is the Custom columns. If you're using those and lose those, that's
phenomenally painful and that's amazingly valuable stuff. But that's custom
stuff not built into what the library normally does.

The stuff you actually lose in a database loss is to me-as-an-end-user not
really a highly painful loss. (See below). Painful, sure, but not many
people pointed to the Media Library reset information have ever responded
back angrily/sadly - *getting to that point* is the real horribleness.
Don't get me wrong: I love the data in the library maybe more than anyone,
and eagerly advocate for Better. But it's "all" clearly recoverable: I
truck between computers often and get 100% of the data I care about
instantly rebuilt into a clean library. I promise I do this. If you want,
say "hey reset your library" and I will. 20,000 tracks, extensive
rarities/vinyl collection, ratings on every track - it'll all show up
perfectly again in in as long as it takes to scan the My Music folder, and I
will have never noticed the difference. =)

Close, Zach. You're getting real close. Ok. Let's try it again. Repeat
after me. "I was wrong when I said that the media player database has no
intrinsic value."

Then zip it. No excuses. No justifications.


95% of the data in the library is reflective (to your media files).
Losing
the library doesn't lose that data. From the *end* *user* *standpoint*
(MY
point of view), it sucks but it's not exactly the end of the world.

95% of your database and even 95% of my database is reflective of our
media
files. But nearly every single CD I have ever ripped had to have the data
corrected in some fashion or another. Losing the database means that I
would
have to compare every single one of my 10,000+ tracks to ensure the
accuracy
of my database. If only 5 of every 100 words are mispelled or
mis-capitalized, I have to still check every single one of them to be sure
all the errors are fixed. And mine is an easy case compared to many.

Why? The data comes from the files. This is an honest confusion on my
part: why would you need to do that? The player is going to scan your files
and only can add in the data from your files. Where is bad data even going
to come from here?

There are many attributes stored only in the database and not in the file.
I can send you a link to the documentation if you're not aware of that.


What about those of your customers who we have seen in here who have
stated
that most of their music came from copying vinyl LPs or 45s? In those
cases,
the reverse could be true and 95% of the data in their library is not
reflective of the files.

Why? The data comes from the files. I've got tons of great stuff from
vinyl, cassette, etc - the library picks that data up from the MP3/WMA file
and caches it (reflectively).

What about wav?


Your stated opinion implies a very callous attitude toward the value of
your
customers' time and efforts as well as their data and personal
intellectual
property.

See above where you think that you lose or need to correct all the metadata
for those tracks on rebuild. I don't think that's the case. This could be
the source of the huge disparity of feeling surrounding an offhand comment I
made to someone else.

And you are the one who keeps bringing your role in Microsoft into the
picture. Like stating that nothing in the readme file would be in it
without your personal approval.

You're also misquoting me here. I know about ten times more about the
field
we were talking about than anyone else. It's a sign of professional
respect
that they would run that by me first. *shrug*

Your statement at the time was nothing would get into the readme without
your approval. Now it is that they would run that by you first out of
professional respect. Who was dishonest? Only one of those two
statements
can be correct.

That easily reconciles - they'd get my approval first because I know that
specific area better than perhaps anyone else in the world. It's part and
parcel of the professional respect. These people and I talk. This is a
great area where I can contribute. All sides know that, and they know that
I take my area very seriously and responsibly. I built my FAQ to solve
problems, and if we collaborate everybody wins.

It would be professionally irresponsible of them in a highly scrutinized
area to put that there in the context you interpreted it as. And since I
did review that section for technical clarity, I was and am pretty sure that
of the two specific interpretations (mine/yours), yours was an honest
mistake - which is why I had asked for clarification on what mislead you in
that section. Clarity is good.

The section was about DRM and losing licenses. You said that the section is
general in nature and doesn't reflect a known issue with WMP 11. But the
section is under the heading within the file of "Known Issues" not under any
general discussion section. According to the readme file for WMP 11, the
possibility of your customer losing access to licensed media is a "Known
Issue" in WMP 11. I stand by my statement since my statement only reflects
what is in the readme.


Search the group for the first post from me that mentions Zach and
search for your first post to me.

I searched Deja, the MS frontend, and Outlook Express, but don't see that
any of them has caches of this. There are appears to be a corruption in the
Deja caches - if you go to my profile's November archives, they're all split
up. There's a reference to some Nov 26th reference that doesn't seem to
exist among the 30 posts I saw on Nov 26th.

You're missing the message. The first message I mentioned you was someone
else asked about getting help in the newsgroup. I said that this is one of
the few newsgroups where someone from Microsoft actively participates. That
was the extent of the statement even if it is just a summary from memory.

Your response was long and attacking.

My open letter and all the other ones you have quoted in this section of
your response were well after that initial confrontation you initiated.


I apologize. There were some specific things you were saying that I thought
misfounded (for example the later accusations of spyware, the repeated "well
microsoft says" - or "Even the Microsoft people on these groups have not
challenged those statements ". Being on vacation (as far away from work as
possible) and just having had my mom hit by a car (causing an injury which
may still require neurosurgery and which has an amazingly high suicide
rate), I didn't really feel interested in being put in the position of the
general WMP fall guy as in your "Open message". And bear in mind that your
behavior patterns really have driven away much more interesting people than
me. I'm boring and useless. Being in the newsgroups generally requires kid
gloves, and that can be frustrating to people who are used to being able to
openly challenge and discuss wrongness. Here most people "get" to be meek,
so if you start spinning away from technical issues into politics, you drive
away good people. I mean, come on, if anybody from the team saw some of the
stuff that you were saying they thought or felt - wow. lol

These were all well after the initial confrontation. Until you attacked me
for saying so, I thought your participation and the tone of the newsgroup was
generally positive and helpful.


Hopefully you've seen since your "Open Message" that as mentioned:
a) I really am specifically required to put [MSFT] - a fact which I went
over again today,
b) I'm not here in an official capacity - it's outside the bounds of my job
and something I do in my own time,
c) I cannot be here in an official capacity,
d) I have to "ignore" real issues and bugs (see also C).

So, yeah, I have no problem with your frustration. I'm outside the normal
bounds, and I'll probably be frustratingly limited but helpful. I don't
have any real solutions there: the only way for me to generally be here in
an official capacity is if I quit Microsoft, in which case I couldn't be
here in an official capacity. Catch-22 there. =)

Ignore me. I try to make good things happen. Good things happen magically
somehow where possible. But see C above.

This has been a lot of words that haven't done anything positive for the
end-user. Please let's stop. =)

-Zach
--
Speaking for myself only.
See http://zachd.com/pss/pss.html for some helpful WMP info.
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.



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