Re: Find Info>File Size Discrepancies

Hi Rafael:

On 21/8/05 3:24 AM, in article BF2CB541.7CDC%raf44ael98@xxxxxxxxxxxxx,
"Montserrat" <raf44ael98@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> OS 9.1
> 325mb ram
> 2mb HD
> Powerbook G3 Wallstreet
> Word 2001

I thought OS 9.22 was the pick of them for OS 9? Anyone remember? Rafael,
I think you might want to go up a level.

1) On Saves: If you perform the operation from within Word, no matter how
you do it, you get the "two files" problem. If you save out of the Finder,
no matter how you do it, you get only one copy of the file at the
destination.

What you describe, dragging from one folder to another, is using the Finder.
Whether you copy or move depends on whether your destination and your source
are on the same device or not. If they are, the system MOVES. If the
destination is on a different device (e.g. The floppy) the system
automatically copies. The original file remains at the source, the copy is
progressively written to the destination.

When working in Word, you can determine where the file is being written by
using File>Save As. Note which folder Word is offering to save a new file
into: that's where the original currently is. If it's the floppy, then you
do have the file open from Word and you will get problems. If it's a folder
on your hard disk, then you are doing the right thing: continue.

2) If you have "Always make backup" turned ON, then Fast Saves is
automatically turned off. It can't operate any other way. Similarly, Fast
Saves is always inhibited for network drives because network file servers do
not support fast saving.

So if you have turned on "Always make backup" then you are doing the right
thing: do not change how you are working. By turning that on, you
automatically disabled fast saves: they cannot exist together.

If you have "never had a problem with fast saves" that simply means your
turn is coming, sooner rather than later :-)

I don't think you need to be saving to backup "every few seconds." In my
work, I save to file every few seconds (basically, every time I pause to
think). At the end of the day, I then save the file to backup. That's
sufficient.

The following day, I start off by re-naming the file to contain today's date
in the name. I tend to keep several days worth of files hanging around, in
case I need to go back several days to back out a change.

For your IOMEGA problem, my first suspicion would be "the software" not the
"device". In other words, I would re-install the driver for the Zip disk
first, before suspecting hardware failure. If I could prove that the
software driver was operating correctly, the next thing I would try is
someone else's device. If that operates correctly, then you are pretty sure
the problem is with the device.

As to getting the Help corrected on Fast Saves: no chance. In America, they
have built a society where if a company ever admits that it is wrong, some
lawyer figures out how to sue them for a lot of money. Companies are like
people: they make mistakes all the time. But American companies rarely
admit to them, because the prospect of getting sued is too high.

Cheers
>
>
> Hi John,
>
> Thanks for the reply and information.
>
> Here are some things relevant to the post.
>
> The size situation described in my first post seemed to change overnight in
> that I have back my main document in the manageable 875kb size ? perhaps
> that was the result of shutting down, closing word windows, I don¹t know,
> but since then I¹ve been able to work and back up as before. A second
> similar document on HD is approximately the same size. And the back up on
> the floppy is also the same.
>
> 2) If you SAVE to a floppy, Word always has two copies at the save
> destination.
>
> I¹ve never ?SAVE(D) AS¹ an open word document to a backup disk, be it zip or
> floppy.
>
> Do you, in your ³2) If you SAVE to a floppy... ², mean that with the word
> document open ? and already having been ³Saved As² and given a name ? you
> are talking about doing a backup to a floppy by going to ³Save As² again
> (Save alone would not open a window), choosing and opening the floppy disk
> icon, clicking ?Save¹, being told there is already..., and saying OK? Is
> that the process you refer to that puts the entire HD document on the floppy
> for the time it takes to write, thus jeapordizing the main document? Or
> does the way I describe drag and drop take the entire HD document across?
>
> I don¹t think it could, because over the years I have done thousands of such
> drag and drop with, say, a 1MB file over onto a 1.4MB floppy, without my
> file being rejected due to lack of space.
>
> (This paragraph may be redundant. I wrote it before I wrote the above)
> I will leave word (the document remaining open) to the finder (desktop)
> where the hard disk file of the document is in a folder. Next to that open
> folder I have the open floppy disk folder containing the same document. I
> drag the file from the HD window and drop it into the floppy/zip window.
> The warning tells me there is an old file, do I want to replace, I say yes.
> The file¹s icon (the one in the floppy) momentarily disappears, then
> reappears and I consider the backup done. Yes, as in your ³3)².
>
> I don¹t know MOVE . I gather it¹s different from drag and drop.
>
> As to my zip drive and zip disks, I have long had an intermittent problem
> with the disk icon appearing on the desktop. I¹ve usually gotten it to
> work again, and it will for many weeks. I¹ve never had a problem with the
> Zip media. With the drive, I¹ve gone through the whole thing with
> extensions and with the Iomega Guest Driver. It¹s just that this time, the
> whole thing hasn¹t yet repaired itself. As I say, I¹m working with someone
> on an apple discussion group. But what do you think, John? does it sound
> like the the drive (the module, the mechanism, itself) is shot?
>
> I both save and back up frequently, religiously, because it¹s creative
> writing and if lost my muse gets angry with me, the computer, and Microsoft
>
> 2
> I¹ve never had a problem with Fasst Save or Always Make Backup Copy. I have
> been doing Always Make Backup Copy just lately, as I made sure the floppy
> modules were working OK. I happen to have two modules, one on each side,
> enabling me to make my two backup copies at almost the same time. Slow
> going though.
>
> The doubling of file size I originally brought still baffles me, althought I
> think the answer is somewhere there in your recent post.
>
> Last. You say ³turn off fast saves and work on my HD². I see what you say
> about Microsoft, but as I said, I save very frequently, sometimes once a
> minute and fast save is fast. I¹ve never had nothing checked in
> preferences, save, save options. Is this what you mean by ³work on your
> hard disk²? I¹ll try it. I want to ask...how will my work be saved (not
> backed up). Is the computer constantly rewriting the document as I write
> or make changes?
>
> As for Microsoft...those waskaly waskals. All it would take would take
> would be to announce a simple ³Erratta²along with a warning.
>
> Help has a lot of good information, but 50% of the time it just doesn¹t
> happen to know the answer to what I¹m asking. But that¹s true for must help
> guides.
>
> Thanks again, Rafael
>
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>
> Hi Rafael:
>
> Yes, I understand that you are using floppies because of hardware failure
> that you are getting fixed. Just to clarify what I said:
>
> 1) Microsoft is desperately trying to avoid admitting to the world (and
> particularly to the lawyers amongst us...) that Fast Saves corrupts
> documents. So they keep writing the Help from the original design
> specification of how it was "supposed" to work.
>
> The truth is: "If you allow fast saves to occur, you WILL corrupt
> documents." When a Fast Save corrupts a document, you get NONE of the file
> back.
>
> The sad reality is that to work, fast saves requires the hardware to work
> "perfectly". As you have discovered, removable media devices simply don't
> work perfectly "all of the time".
>
> The Help on fast saves is misleading. It always has been misleading. It
> describes what happens when everything works perfectly. It does not
> describe what happens in reality, which is that floppy drives produce errors
> (every storage device does, it's just that floppies can't automatically
> correct their errors like hard disks and memory can ...)
>
> 2) If you SAVE to a floppy, Word always has two copies at the save
> destination.
>
> A) If you have Fast Saves on, the file is twice the size
>
> B) If you have fast saves OFF, there are two copies on the disk during the
> save process: the new one being written, and the old one which is not
> deleted until the save succeeds. So you need twice the file size available
> in disk space.
>
> C) If you have Always make backup on, there are two copies on the disk: the
> original, and the backup. During the save there are three: the new one
> being written, the old one about to be renamed as the backup, and the
> previous backup waiting to be deleted. You need three times the file size
> available on disk.
>
> 3) If you COPY to the floppy using the Finder, you only need space on the
> disk sufficient for one copy of the file. If the file already exists on the
> disk, you do not need any extra space because the file will be overwritten
> during the copy.
>
> When you COPY to another disk, the original remains on your hard disk. If
> you MOVE, the file is first written to the floppy, then deleted from the
> hard. Don't MOVE files to floppies.
>
> So: Turn fast saves off and work on your hard disk. Copy to the floppy for
> backup at the end of each working session.
>
> If you have OSX you can use .Zip or Stuffit to compress the files to take up
> less disk space. A Word document will compress to as little as half its
> size, depending on what's in it.
>
> Hope this helps
>
> On 20/8/05 2:44 AM, in article BF2B5A64.7C8C%raf44ael98@xxxxxxxxxxxxx,
> "Montserrat" <raf44ael98@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> ³You've left Fast Saves turned on. Turn it off... ³
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> I turned off Fast Save
>>
>> In Help I found this:
>>
>> ³If you select the Always create backup copy check box on the Save tab in
>> the Preferences dialog box (Edit menu), Word clears the Allow fast saves
>> check box, because backup copies can be created only with full saves.³
>>
>> (I have had ¹Always create backup copy¹ check box on as a safety should the
>> computer crash. This has saved my .... in the past. What didn¹t happen is
>> that ?Allow fast saves¹ was never cleared.)
>>
>> ³Select the Allow fast saves check box when you are working on a very large
>> document.³
>>
>> (that¹s also why I ³allowed fast saves², because my MS is a whole novel.)
>>
>> ³However, a full save requires less disk space than a fast save.
>>
>> You should do a full save in the following situations:
>> ? When you finish working on a document and save it for the last time.³
>>
>> (Does that mean going back to preferences and checking ³full save³ at the
>> end of a work period?)
>>
>> ³? Before you begin a task that uses a lot of memory, such as searching for
>> text or compiling an index.³
>>
>> In fast save, I often search for text and don¹t have a problem.
>>
>> As for floppies, my zip drive is not working and with the kind of five
>> minute or so back ups that I need to do, the CD burner isn¹t a practical
>> device.
>>
>> Having used the floppies for a couple of weeks, I have been making
>> successful transfers of the 900k document. Do you mean that when the
>> original document is dragged over, it stays on the disk ? I don¹t understand
>> this happening because certainly 950x2 would be 1.9MB which the floppy
>> wouldn¹t take ? that the original document does not stay securely on my HD,
>> but is now only on the floppy? As above, I don¹t understand this as what¹s
>> been happening.
>>
>> The floppies seem reliable enough (I make copies on two floppies) and I
>> frequently make a backup to CD.
>>
>> Of course I like the Zip better. I¹m working with an apple peripherals disc
>> group now to try to fix zip drive.
>>
>> Thanks, Rafael
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Look in the help under "fast saves"
>>
>> And don't save from Word to a floppy. Not EVER. They're not big enough,
>> and they're not reliable enough...
>>
>> Close the document and transfer it using Finder. If you save, you need
>> twice the size of the document on the floppy, because Word writes the new
>> version before deleting the old one. If it fails because the disk runs out
>> of room, chances are you will lose both versions.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> On 19/8/05 9:39 AM, in article BF2A6A31.7C7A%raf44ael98@xxxxxxxxxxxxx,
>> "Montserrat" <raf44ael98@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> This problem may have come up before on the newsgroup, but I still don't
>>> understand it.
>>>
>>> I've been working with a 975k file and able to back up onto a 1.2mb floppy.
>>> I am presently forced to use these teeny-weeny disks. I've been working on
>>> the document in the HD and backing up onto floppy, since the file on both
>>> has been the same size. The only thing that I've done since the last backup
>>> is change around a few words in the header, and moved a couple of chapter
>>> beginnings down three inches. Nothing.
>>>
>>> Just now I went to back up HD doc to floppy and it wouldn't saying not
>>> enough room. In the get info for the HD document I get 2.2MB. I made a
>>> select copy paste into a new word document and get info says 1.2 MB. The
>>> bytes amounts in get infos are proportional to the differences in MB.
>>>
>>> I don't get it.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>

--

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John McGhie <john@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Microsoft MVP, Word and Word for Macintosh. Consultant Technical Writer
Sydney, Australia +61 4 1209 1410

.