Re: CSS?

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From: Thomas A. Rowe (tarowe_at_mvps.org)
Date: 01/24/05 

Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:48:06 -0500

See inline 

-- 
==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)
http://www.ycoln-resources.com
FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see:
http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
"Murray" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message 
news:e0TvaejAFHA.1408@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>> I disagree that a browser loads a CSS page faster than a standard HTML page, minus images and 
>> other external content. Unless using inline/embedded CSS, the browser must reference another file 
>> for each page loaded, even if the file is in memory it still take time, especially the first page 
>> accessed on a site. With plain HTML the browser has all of the information needed render the 
>> page. Same applies to external JavaScript files.
>
> Check my site and measure the load time.  Rebuild it with tables and measure the load time.  I 
> guarantee you that even though I have an external CSS file to download, it will load faster in its 
> current state than with table code filling the page.  But the real benefit is on the next and 
> subsequent page. Since all presentation is now cached in the form of CSS files, those subsquent 
> pages load in a flash.  You just can't get this with tables.
>
> With regard to older browsers, if you are worried about NN2 and IE2, then your font sizes are the 
> least of your problems, since (as I recall) js support wasn't good until v3+ browsers came along. 
> Personally, I don't know anyone who is serious about supporting such antique browsers.  I do know 
> lots of people who spend quite a bit of time making sure that all v4+ browsers are supported on 
> all platforms, and I believe that is the right way to go.  If my evaluation of the sites I see 
> posted here is correct, there is nobody here who should be worrying about anything less than v4.
I have client sites that show visitors are using older browsers. Anyone that is developing a 
business or e-commerece web site should be concerned. Since I don't use CSS, I avoid having to spend 
time worrying about CSS issues in older browsers, as I know they will not have a problem.
>
>> Bottom-line, CSS is just another technology that can be used or not used, and I choose to not use 
>> it for much. I get the same basic benefits with ASP/VBScript without the cross browser / platform 
>> issues of using CSS.
>
> It's not really likely.  Honestly.  CSS can do lots  that you would have to stand on your head to 
> do.  Like a first line indent, for example.  Or a non-tiling background image.  Or positioning. 
> But I don't want to argue really.  CSS will only benefit those who are willing to take the time to 
> learn it.  If you are not, then it will not help you much.
Has nothing to do with learning, I design sites that do not have a need for any of the items you 
have mentioned above.
>
> Don't get me wrong.  I am not saying that everyone must use CSS.  I am saying that one should not 
> allow the notion that it's not well supported to get in their way.  Nearly all of CSS1 is 
> supported by >95 % of the browsers currently in use on the web.  I am also saying that (I believe) 
> the time and effort spent familiarizing onesself with CSS will be repaid in pages that are easier 
> to maintain, and faster to load.
My pages are easy to maintain and load fast as well, considering most are database driven.
I don't see this as arguing, just a nice friendly exchange of thoughts on the subject of CSS.
BTW: I do have a project where I used CSS for fonts and layout and one of these days, I will remove 
the CSS. <smile>
>
> -- 
> Murray
>
> "Thomas A. Rowe" <tarowe@mvps.org> wrote in message 
> news:%23v74bTjAFHA.2880@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> Using CSS, your pages will NOT look right in all browsers, as all browsers currently in use do 
>> not support CSS fully or at all. It is not the point of learning CSS, it is the implementation 
>> (trying to make sure that it works cross browser, etc.) that is time consuming. I don't want to 
>> have to be concerned about what browser / platform a site visitor might be using. If I use CSS, 
>> then I have to be concerned, which means more time and effort.
>>
>> I disagree that a browser loads a CSS page faster than a standard HTML page, minus images and 
>> other external content. Unless using inline/embedded CSS, the browser must reference another file 
>> for each page loaded, even if the file is in memory it still take time, especially the first page 
>> accessed on a site. With plain HTML the browser has all of the information needed render the 
>> page. Same applies to external JavaScript files.
>>
>> Bottom-line, CSS is just another technology that can be used or not used, and I choose to not use 
>> it for much. I get the same basic benefits with ASP/VBScript without the cross browser / platform 
>> issues of using CSS.
>> -- 
>> ==============================================
>> Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
>> WEBMASTER Resources(tm)
>> http://www.ycoln-resources.com
>> FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
>> ==============================================
>> To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see:
>> http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
>>
>> "Murray" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message 
>> news:ewNPq8iAFHA.2060@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>>> The time and effort involved in learning CSS (even CSS 101) will be amply rewarded in pages that 
>>> continue to look right on all browsers, and that load faster than their corresponding HTML 
>>> styled pages.  There's not a good argument for not expending that time and effort, in my 
>>> opinion.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Murray
>>>
>>> "Thomas A. Rowe" <tarowe@mvps.org> wrote in message 
>>> news:OeZ%23jyiAFHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
>>>> And you can allow for font size changes.
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> ==============================================
>>>> Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
>>>> WEBMASTER Resources(tm)
>>>> http://www.ycoln-resources.com
>>>> FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
>>>> ==============================================
>>>> To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see:
>>>> http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
>>>>
>>>> "Murray" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message 
>>>> news:ePBI6siAFHA.2428@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> Without using CSS (which I feel requires more time and effort), it is very easy to design a 
>>>>>> site that look "basically" the same in all graphical browsers and it doesn't take any extra 
>>>>>> effort to do so.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Basically" is subjective.  If you use points for your text size, you will see a rendering 
>>>>> difference between browsers.
>>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Murray
>>>>>
>>>>> "Thomas A. Rowe" <tarowe@mvps.org> wrote in message 
>>>>> news:O0dG6TbAFHA.3860@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> Without using CSS (which I feel requires more time and effort), it is very easy to design a 
>>>>>> site that look "basically" the same in all graphical browsers and it doesn't take any extra 
>>>>>> effort to do so.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stats for one of my client sites show IE2 and up and NS2 and up. I don't care what the number 
>>>>>> of users are using these browser or % of the total visitors they are, just that these users 
>>>>>> are seeing the site, basically same as any other users.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> ==============================================
>>>>>> Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
>>>>>> WEBMASTER Resources(tm)
>>>>>> http://www.ycoln-resources.com
>>>>>> FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
>>>>>> ==============================================
>>>>>> To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see:
>>>>>> http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Murray" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message 
>>>>>> news:%23Ze8ZIbAFHA.3744@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>> Let's be clear -
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> CSS CAN cause problems in NN4x.  It works pretty well in all other v4+ browsers (except 
>>>>>>> IE4/PC and Mac - but nobody uses them anyhow).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you are going to use CSS, and you want to support NN4x, then you must check your pages in 
>>>>>>> that browser.  Frankly, I have stopped worrying about it to the extent that I code my pages 
>>>>>>> so that NN4x users get a functional site, but not one that looks like what you would see in 
>>>>>>> IE/FF/Safari. That's easy enough to do....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>> Murray
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Susan" <dsnsacree@msn.com> wrote in message news:%23JWEQWaAFHA.3664@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>> Thanks, I knew you had your reasons! I read that CSS may cause problems with older 
>>>>>>>> browsers, so I assumed you must be trying to accomodate most everyone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Susan
>>>>>>>> "Thomas A. Rowe" <tarowe@mvps.org> wrote in message 
>>>>>>>> news:%23xLpgpWAFHA.1564@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>W E B GU R L
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I guess that I am crazy, because I can make a single change and have it apply to all pages 
>>>>>>>>> via ASP/VBScript.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I can control colors, images, fonts, table/cell widths and heights, content includes, 
>>>>>>>>> etc., basically any HTML element via ASP/VBScript. I do this either from a single page in 
>>>>>>>>> the site or from a database without having a need to use CSS for other then what I have 
>>>>>>>>> mentioned in my post.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A Basic Example/Demo:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.ecom-data.com/Examples/Seasons/default.asp
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Click on each of the 4 seasons at the top of the example/demo.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>> ==============================================
>>>>>>>>> Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
>>>>>>>>> WEBMASTER Resources(tm)
>>>>>>>>> http://www.ycoln-resources.com
>>>>>>>>> FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
>>>>>>>>> ==============================================
>>>>>>>>> To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see:
>>>>>>>>> http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "W E B GU R L" <nospam@thanks.com> wrote in message 
>>>>>>>>> news:%23hhaJEUAFHA.2712@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>> Anyone not using CSS is crazy! Same as templates and if FP has them like DW, library
>>>>>>>>>> items. Life is so much easier when you change make change to only one thing instead of
>>>>>>>>>> EVERY page. Now that just does not make sense to me!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> http://hostspace.com.au
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Thomas A. Rowe" <tarowe@mvps.org> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:Owa2EpPAFHA.612@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>> I only use CSS for:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1. removing the underline from hyperlinks
>>>>>>>>>> 2. set the link hover color
>>>>>>>>>> 3. Creating page breaks in long documents for printing.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Other than the above, I personally have not found any good reasons for me to use CSS.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>> ==============================================
>>>>>>>>>> Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
>>>>>>>>>> WEBMASTER Resources(tm)
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ycoln-resources.com
>>>>>>>>>> FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
>>>>>>>>>> ==============================================
>>>>>>>>>> To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see:
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Susan" <dsnsacree@msn.com> wrote in message 
>>>>>>>>>> news:ufkfNbPAFHA.2196@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>> Do you generally use CSS for websites? When would you use the formating toolbar--to
>>>>>>>>>> override CSS?
>>>>>>>>>>> "Thomas A. Rowe" <tarowe@mvps.org> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:u5Q$OPKAFHA.1908@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>>> Select all of the text on the page, then Format Menu | Remove Formatting
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>>>>>> ==============================================
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
>>>>>>>>>>>> WEBMASTER Resources(tm)
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ycoln-resources.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>> ==============================================
>>>>>>>>>>>> To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see:
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Susan" <dsnsacree@msn.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:ONOw0%23JAFHA.2112@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there easy way to convert website to use CSS? There are several <font> tags in
>>>>>>>>>> pages. Do I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to manually delete them with find and replace? I am tired of size and font-face
>>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>>>>>> specified numerous times on pages. I want to get consistency in website.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for info.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Susan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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