Re: CSS?
From: Thomas A. Rowe (tarowe_at_mvps.org)
Date: 01/24/05
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Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:48:06 -0500
See inline
-- ============================================== Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage) WEBMASTER Resources(tm) http://www.ycoln-resources.com FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc. ============================================== To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see: http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp "Murray" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message news:e0TvaejAFHA.1408@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl... >> I disagree that a browser loads a CSS page faster than a standard HTML page, minus images and >> other external content. Unless using inline/embedded CSS, the browser must reference another file >> for each page loaded, even if the file is in memory it still take time, especially the first page >> accessed on a site. With plain HTML the browser has all of the information needed render the >> page. Same applies to external JavaScript files. > > Check my site and measure the load time. Rebuild it with tables and measure the load time. I > guarantee you that even though I have an external CSS file to download, it will load faster in its > current state than with table code filling the page. But the real benefit is on the next and > subsequent page. Since all presentation is now cached in the form of CSS files, those subsquent > pages load in a flash. You just can't get this with tables. > > With regard to older browsers, if you are worried about NN2 and IE2, then your font sizes are the > least of your problems, since (as I recall) js support wasn't good until v3+ browsers came along. > Personally, I don't know anyone who is serious about supporting such antique browsers. I do know > lots of people who spend quite a bit of time making sure that all v4+ browsers are supported on > all platforms, and I believe that is the right way to go. If my evaluation of the sites I see > posted here is correct, there is nobody here who should be worrying about anything less than v4. I have client sites that show visitors are using older browsers. Anyone that is developing a business or e-commerece web site should be concerned. Since I don't use CSS, I avoid having to spend time worrying about CSS issues in older browsers, as I know they will not have a problem. > >> Bottom-line, CSS is just another technology that can be used or not used, and I choose to not use >> it for much. I get the same basic benefits with ASP/VBScript without the cross browser / platform >> issues of using CSS. > > It's not really likely. Honestly. CSS can do lots that you would have to stand on your head to > do. Like a first line indent, for example. Or a non-tiling background image. Or positioning. > But I don't want to argue really. CSS will only benefit those who are willing to take the time to > learn it. If you are not, then it will not help you much. Has nothing to do with learning, I design sites that do not have a need for any of the items you have mentioned above. > > Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that everyone must use CSS. I am saying that one should not > allow the notion that it's not well supported to get in their way. Nearly all of CSS1 is > supported by >95 % of the browsers currently in use on the web. I am also saying that (I believe) > the time and effort spent familiarizing onesself with CSS will be repaid in pages that are easier > to maintain, and faster to load. My pages are easy to maintain and load fast as well, considering most are database driven. I don't see this as arguing, just a nice friendly exchange of thoughts on the subject of CSS. BTW: I do have a project where I used CSS for fonts and layout and one of these days, I will remove the CSS. <smile> > > -- > Murray > > "Thomas A. Rowe" <tarowe@mvps.org> wrote in message > news:%23v74bTjAFHA.2880@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >> Using CSS, your pages will NOT look right in all browsers, as all browsers currently in use do >> not support CSS fully or at all. It is not the point of learning CSS, it is the implementation >> (trying to make sure that it works cross browser, etc.) that is time consuming. I don't want to >> have to be concerned about what browser / platform a site visitor might be using. If I use CSS, >> then I have to be concerned, which means more time and effort. >> >> I disagree that a browser loads a CSS page faster than a standard HTML page, minus images and >> other external content. Unless using inline/embedded CSS, the browser must reference another file >> for each page loaded, even if the file is in memory it still take time, especially the first page >> accessed on a site. With plain HTML the browser has all of the information needed render the >> page. Same applies to external JavaScript files. >> >> Bottom-line, CSS is just another technology that can be used or not used, and I choose to not use >> it for much. I get the same basic benefits with ASP/VBScript without the cross browser / platform >> issues of using CSS. >> -- >> ============================================== >> Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage) >> WEBMASTER Resources(tm) >> http://www.ycoln-resources.com >> FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc. >> ============================================== >> To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see: >> http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp >> >> "Murray" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message >> news:ewNPq8iAFHA.2060@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... >>> The time and effort involved in learning CSS (even CSS 101) will be amply rewarded in pages that >>> continue to look right on all browsers, and that load faster than their corresponding HTML >>> styled pages. There's not a good argument for not expending that time and effort, in my >>> opinion. >>> >>> -- >>> Murray >>> >>> "Thomas A. Rowe" <tarowe@mvps.org> wrote in message >>> news:OeZ%23jyiAFHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl... >>>> And you can allow for font size changes. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> ============================================== >>>> Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage) >>>> WEBMASTER Resources(tm) >>>> http://www.ycoln-resources.com >>>> FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc. >>>> ============================================== >>>> To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see: >>>> http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp >>>> >>>> "Murray" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message >>>> news:ePBI6siAFHA.2428@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >>>>>> Without using CSS (which I feel requires more time and effort), it is very easy to design a >>>>>> site that look "basically" the same in all graphical browsers and it doesn't take any extra >>>>>> effort to do so. >>>>> >>>>> "Basically" is subjective. If you use points for your text size, you will see a rendering >>>>> difference between browsers. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Murray >>>>> >>>>> "Thomas A. Rowe" <tarowe@mvps.org> wrote in message >>>>> news:O0dG6TbAFHA.3860@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl... >>>>>> Without using CSS (which I feel requires more time and effort), it is very easy to design a >>>>>> site that look "basically" the same in all graphical browsers and it doesn't take any extra >>>>>> effort to do so. >>>>>> >>>>>> Stats for one of my client sites show IE2 and up and NS2 and up. I don't care what the number >>>>>> of users are using these browser or % of the total visitors they are, just that these users >>>>>> are seeing the site, basically same as any other users. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> ============================================== >>>>>> Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage) >>>>>> WEBMASTER Resources(tm) >>>>>> http://www.ycoln-resources.com >>>>>> FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc. >>>>>> ============================================== >>>>>> To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see: >>>>>> http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp >>>>>> >>>>>> "Murray" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message >>>>>> news:%23Ze8ZIbAFHA.3744@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... >>>>>>> Let's be clear - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> CSS CAN cause problems in NN4x. It works pretty well in all other v4+ browsers (except >>>>>>> IE4/PC and Mac - but nobody uses them anyhow). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you are going to use CSS, and you want to support NN4x, then you must check your pages in >>>>>>> that browser. Frankly, I have stopped worrying about it to the extent that I code my pages >>>>>>> so that NN4x users get a functional site, but not one that looks like what you would see in >>>>>>> IE/FF/Safari. That's easy enough to do.... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Murray >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Susan" <dsnsacree@msn.com> wrote in message news:%23JWEQWaAFHA.3664@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >>>>>>>> Thanks, I knew you had your reasons! I read that CSS may cause problems with older >>>>>>>> browsers, so I assumed you must be trying to accomodate most everyone. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Susan >>>>>>>> "Thomas A. Rowe" <tarowe@mvps.org> wrote in message >>>>>>>> news:%23xLpgpWAFHA.1564@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl... >>>>>>>>>W E B GU R L >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I guess that I am crazy, because I can make a single change and have it apply to all pages >>>>>>>>> via ASP/VBScript. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I can control colors, images, fonts, table/cell widths and heights, content includes, >>>>>>>>> etc., basically any HTML element via ASP/VBScript. I do this either from a single page in >>>>>>>>> the site or from a database without having a need to use CSS for other then what I have >>>>>>>>> mentioned in my post. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A Basic Example/Demo: >>>>>>>>> http://www.ecom-data.com/Examples/Seasons/default.asp >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Click on each of the 4 seasons at the top of the example/demo. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> ============================================== >>>>>>>>> Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage) >>>>>>>>> WEBMASTER Resources(tm) >>>>>>>>> http://www.ycoln-resources.com >>>>>>>>> FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc. >>>>>>>>> ============================================== >>>>>>>>> To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see: >>>>>>>>> http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "W E B GU R L" <nospam@thanks.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>>> news:%23hhaJEUAFHA.2712@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... >>>>>>>>>> Anyone not using CSS is crazy! Same as templates and if FP has them like DW, library >>>>>>>>>> items. Life is so much easier when you change make change to only one thing instead of >>>>>>>>>> EVERY page. Now that just does not make sense to me! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> http://hostspace.com.au >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Thomas A. Rowe" <tarowe@mvps.org> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>> news:Owa2EpPAFHA.612@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl... >>>>>>>>>> I only use CSS for: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 1. removing the underline from hyperlinks >>>>>>>>>> 2. set the link hover color >>>>>>>>>> 3. Creating page breaks in long documents for printing. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Other than the above, I personally have not found any good reasons for me to use CSS. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> ============================================== >>>>>>>>>> Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage) >>>>>>>>>> WEBMASTER Resources(tm) >>>>>>>>>> http://www.ycoln-resources.com >>>>>>>>>> FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc. >>>>>>>>>> ============================================== >>>>>>>>>> To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> "Susan" <dsnsacree@msn.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>> news:ufkfNbPAFHA.2196@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >>>>>>>>>>> Do you generally use CSS for websites? When would you use the formating toolbar--to >>>>>>>>>> override CSS? >>>>>>>>>>> "Thomas A. Rowe" <tarowe@mvps.org> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>> news:u5Q$OPKAFHA.1908@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... >>>>>>>>>>>> Select all of the text on the page, then Format Menu | Remove Formatting >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> ============================================== >>>>>>>>>>>> Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage) >>>>>>>>>>>> WEBMASTER Resources(tm) >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ycoln-resources.com >>>>>>>>>>>> FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>> ============================================== >>>>>>>>>>>> To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> "Susan" <dsnsacree@msn.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>> news:ONOw0%23JAFHA.2112@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there easy way to convert website to use CSS? There are several <font> tags in >>>>>>>>>> pages. Do I >>>>>>>>>>>>> need to manually delete them with find and replace? I am tired of size and font-face >>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>>> specified numerous times on pages. I want to get consistency in website. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for info. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Susan >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > >
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- In reply to: Murray: "Re: CSS?"
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