Re: CSS?
From: Murray (forums_at_HAHAgreat-web-sights.com)
Date: 01/24/05
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Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:10:30 -0500
> I disagree that a browser loads a CSS page faster than a standard HTML
> page, minus images and other external content. Unless using
> inline/embedded CSS, the browser must reference another file for each page
> loaded, even if the file is in memory it still take time, especially the
> first page accessed on a site. With plain HTML the browser has all of the
> information needed render the page. Same applies to external JavaScript
> files.
Check my site and measure the load time. Rebuild it with tables and measure
the load time. I guarantee you that even though I have an external CSS file
to download, it will load faster in its current state than with table code
filling the page. But the real benefit is on the next and subsequent page.
Since all presentation is now cached in the form of CSS files, those
subsquent pages load in a flash. You just can't get this with tables.
With regard to older browsers, if you are worried about NN2 and IE2, then
your font sizes are the least of your problems, since (as I recall) js
support wasn't good until v3+ browsers came along. Personally, I don't know
anyone who is serious about supporting such antique browsers. I do know
lots of people who spend quite a bit of time making sure that all v4+
browsers are supported on all platforms, and I believe that is the right way
to go. If my evaluation of the sites I see posted here is correct, there is
nobody here who should be worrying about anything less than v4.
> Bottom-line, CSS is just another technology that can be used or not used,
> and I choose to not use it for much. I get the same basic benefits with
> ASP/VBScript without the cross browser / platform issues of using CSS.
It's not really likely. Honestly. CSS can do lots that you would have to
stand on your head to do. Like a first line indent, for example. Or a
non-tiling background image. Or positioning. But I don't want to argue
really. CSS will only benefit those who are willing to take the time to
learn it. If you are not, then it will not help you much.
Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that everyone must use CSS. I am
saying that one should not allow the notion that it's not well supported to
get in their way. Nearly all of CSS1 is supported by >95 % of the browsers
currently in use on the web. I am also saying that (I believe) the time and
effort spent familiarizing onesself with CSS will be repaid in pages that
are easier to maintain, and faster to load.
-- Murray "Thomas A. Rowe" <tarowe@mvps.org> wrote in message news:%23v74bTjAFHA.2880@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... > Using CSS, your pages will NOT look right in all browsers, as all browsers > currently in use do not support CSS fully or at all. It is not the point > of learning CSS, it is the implementation (trying to make sure that it > works cross browser, etc.) that is time consuming. I don't want to have to > be concerned about what browser / platform a site visitor might be using. > If I use CSS, then I have to be concerned, which means more time and > effort. > > I disagree that a browser loads a CSS page faster than a standard HTML > page, minus images and other external content. Unless using > inline/embedded CSS, the browser must reference another file for each page > loaded, even if the file is in memory it still take time, especially the > first page accessed on a site. With plain HTML the browser has all of the > information needed render the page. Same applies to external JavaScript > files. > > Bottom-line, CSS is just another technology that can be used or not used, > and I choose to not use it for much. I get the same basic benefits with > ASP/VBScript without the cross browser / platform issues of using CSS. > -- > ============================================== > Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage) > WEBMASTER Resources(tm) > http://www.ycoln-resources.com > FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc. > ============================================== > To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see: > http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp > > "Murray" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message > news:ewNPq8iAFHA.2060@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... >> The time and effort involved in learning CSS (even CSS 101) will be amply >> rewarded in pages that continue to look right on all browsers, and that >> load faster than their corresponding HTML styled pages. There's not a >> good argument for not expending that time and effort, in my opinion. >> >> -- >> Murray >> >> "Thomas A. Rowe" <tarowe@mvps.org> wrote in message >> news:OeZ%23jyiAFHA.3940@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl... >>> And you can allow for font size changes. >>> >>> -- >>> ============================================== >>> Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage) >>> WEBMASTER Resources(tm) >>> http://www.ycoln-resources.com >>> FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc. >>> ============================================== >>> To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see: >>> http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp >>> >>> "Murray" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message >>> news:ePBI6siAFHA.2428@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >>>>> Without using CSS (which I feel requires more time and effort), it is >>>>> very easy to design a site that look "basically" the same in all >>>>> graphical browsers and it doesn't take any extra effort to do so. >>>> >>>> "Basically" is subjective. If you use points for your text size, you >>>> will see a rendering difference between browsers. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Murray >>>> >>>> "Thomas A. Rowe" <tarowe@mvps.org> wrote in message >>>> news:O0dG6TbAFHA.3860@TK2MSFTNGP11.phx.gbl... >>>>> Without using CSS (which I feel requires more time and effort), it is >>>>> very easy to design a site that look "basically" the same in all >>>>> graphical browsers and it doesn't take any extra effort to do so. >>>>> >>>>> Stats for one of my client sites show IE2 and up and NS2 and up. I >>>>> don't care what the number of users are using these browser or % of >>>>> the total visitors they are, just that these users are seeing the >>>>> site, basically same as any other users. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> ============================================== >>>>> Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage) >>>>> WEBMASTER Resources(tm) >>>>> http://www.ycoln-resources.com >>>>> FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc. >>>>> ============================================== >>>>> To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support see: >>>>> http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp >>>>> >>>>> "Murray" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message >>>>> news:%23Ze8ZIbAFHA.3744@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... >>>>>> Let's be clear - >>>>>> >>>>>> CSS CAN cause problems in NN4x. It works pretty well in all other >>>>>> v4+ browsers (except IE4/PC and Mac - but nobody uses them anyhow). >>>>>> >>>>>> If you are going to use CSS, and you want to support NN4x, then you >>>>>> must check your pages in that browser. Frankly, I have stopped >>>>>> worrying about it to the extent that I code my pages so that NN4x >>>>>> users get a functional site, but not one that looks like what you >>>>>> would see in IE/FF/Safari. That's easy enough to do.... >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Murray >>>>>> >>>>>> "Susan" <dsnsacree@msn.com> wrote in message >>>>>> news:%23JWEQWaAFHA.3664@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >>>>>>> Thanks, I knew you had your reasons! I read that CSS may cause >>>>>>> problems with older browsers, so I assumed you must be trying to >>>>>>> accomodate most everyone. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Susan >>>>>>> "Thomas A. Rowe" <tarowe@mvps.org> wrote in message >>>>>>> news:%23xLpgpWAFHA.1564@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl... >>>>>>>>W E B GU R L >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I guess that I am crazy, because I can make a single change and >>>>>>>> have it apply to all pages via ASP/VBScript. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I can control colors, images, fonts, table/cell widths and heights, >>>>>>>> content includes, etc., basically any HTML element via >>>>>>>> ASP/VBScript. I do this either from a single page in the site or >>>>>>>> from a database without having a need to use CSS for other then >>>>>>>> what I have mentioned in my post. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A Basic Example/Demo: >>>>>>>> http://www.ecom-data.com/Examples/Seasons/default.asp >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Click on each of the 4 seasons at the top of the example/demo. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> ============================================== >>>>>>>> Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage) >>>>>>>> WEBMASTER Resources(tm) >>>>>>>> http://www.ycoln-resources.com >>>>>>>> FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc. >>>>>>>> ============================================== >>>>>>>> To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support >>>>>>>> see: >>>>>>>> http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "W E B GU R L" <nospam@thanks.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>> news:%23hhaJEUAFHA.2712@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... >>>>>>>>> Anyone not using CSS is crazy! Same as templates and if FP has >>>>>>>>> them like DW, library >>>>>>>>> items. Life is so much easier when you change make change to only >>>>>>>>> one thing instead of >>>>>>>>> EVERY page. Now that just does not make sense to me! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> http://hostspace.com.au >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "Thomas A. Rowe" <tarowe@mvps.org> wrote in message >>>>>>>>> news:Owa2EpPAFHA.612@TK2MSFTNGP09.phx.gbl... >>>>>>>>> I only use CSS for: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 1. removing the underline from hyperlinks >>>>>>>>> 2. set the link hover color >>>>>>>>> 3. Creating page breaks in long documents for printing. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Other than the above, I personally have not found any good reasons >>>>>>>>> for me to use CSS. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> ============================================== >>>>>>>>> Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage) >>>>>>>>> WEBMASTER Resources(tm) >>>>>>>>> http://www.ycoln-resources.com >>>>>>>>> FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc. >>>>>>>>> ============================================== >>>>>>>>> To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support >>>>>>>>> see: >>>>>>>>> http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "Susan" <dsnsacree@msn.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>>> news:ufkfNbPAFHA.2196@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >>>>>>>>>> Do you generally use CSS for websites? When would you use the >>>>>>>>>> formating toolbar--to >>>>>>>>> override CSS? >>>>>>>>>> "Thomas A. Rowe" <tarowe@mvps.org> wrote in message >>>>>>>>> news:u5Q$OPKAFHA.1908@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... >>>>>>>>>>> Select all of the text on the page, then Format Menu | Remove >>>>>>>>>>> Formatting >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> ============================================== >>>>>>>>>>> Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage) >>>>>>>>>>> WEBMASTER Resources(tm) >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.ycoln-resources.com >>>>>>>>>>> FrontPage Resources, WebCircle, MS KB Quick Links, etc. >>>>>>>>>>> ============================================== >>>>>>>>>>> To assist you in getting the best answers for FrontPage support >>>>>>>>>>> see: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.net-sites.com/sitebuilder/newsgroups.asp >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> "Susan" <dsnsacree@msn.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>>> news:ONOw0%23JAFHA.2112@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >>>>>>>>>>>> Is there easy way to convert website to use CSS? There are >>>>>>>>>>>> several <font> tags in >>>>>>>>> pages. Do I >>>>>>>>>>>> need to manually delete them with find and replace? I am tired >>>>>>>>>>>> of size and font-face >>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>>>> specified numerous times on pages. I want to get consistency in >>>>>>>>>>>> website. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for info. >>>>>>>>>>>> Susan >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > >
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