Re: STL.NET news

Andrew,

See inline.

Willy.

"Andrew Roberts" <MuayThai@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:e4E3V2WMGHA.2712@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
| Willy,
|
| I can understand where you are coming from but I think you don't
appreciate
| the importance of this because you don't understand the STL (once you've
| looked at that take a good look at Boost too). Any C++ programmer who
keeps
| their skills reasonably up to date will have come to rely on the STL to
some
| extent (the same as any .NET developer relies on the BCL, imagine if a new
| .NET language was created but you only got half the BCL...).
|

I don't think you know where I'm comming from, so let me explain first, I
started back in '78 (until I left the dev. busines a few years ago) to use
C/C++ as my primary language, my main task over the years was
designing/writing/porting low level stuff at DEC for VAX VMS/OVMS,
Ultrix/Unix & NT4/W2K on Alpha AXP in ASM, C and later C++, later I've done
some application level development, and I learned to use and apriciate the
STL (and other template based libraries), I'm not an expert, but I know
quite well what the STL means to the C++ community, now they have a
conformant STL in VC8 so what's the problem?
C++/CLI is a .NET language, and, as you said above, the key class library
for all .NET languages to rely upon is the Framework Class Library. Now, the
FCL is certainly lacking some features, and it's good to see some third
parties releasing rich container classes libraries, but that's not good
enough, what we need is some basic stuff added to the FCL. But, does that
mean that C++/CLI languages becomes "next to useless without" a "managed"
version of the STL (as was said by rellik)? I don't think so.
Now, when we look at the STL/CLR, AFAIK this is gonna be a C++/CLI only
library, it's a template library, not an MSIL library. This may be great to
have for the C++ community (at least for those who are willing to embrace
C++/CLI), but it lacks cross-(.NET)language support, that means it can't be
used (directly) from the other languages, so IMO it's not a first class
citizen in .NET

| There are a large number of highly talented C++ developers out there who
are
| not using C++ for their .NET development, or maybe not doing .NET
| development at all, because they do not have access to their full set of
| standard libraries.


I know a number of C++ devs. some don't need .NET at all, because their
problem domains don't need it (device driver & high perf. stuff).
But there are others, who aren't willing to touch .NET at all, believe me,
not because they are missing their favorite libraries. One of my jobs of the
last two years was trying to make them change their minds, quite a tough
job, but we are moving forward.

The point is there is no equivilant of the STL in the
| BCL, the Collections.Generic namespace provides a very basic set of
classes,
| a very small subset of what the STL does.
|
| Last but not least this is a very very hard problem to solve, largely due
to
| type identity issues, and consequently the STL/CLR was almost dropped.
The
| reason this decision has been reversed is due to the huge demand for it
from
| the community, so even though its a serious piece of engineering on
| Microsofts part to achieve it is being done (as much as can be
implemented).
| Now if that doesn't contradict your statement that developers don't care
| about it I don't know what does.
|
Sorry, You must have mis-understood my statement, what I meant to say was
"Microsoft doesn't care whether the vast majority of the C++ developers
embraced C++/CLI" as long as they use one of their products...
I can't comment on the rest of this paragraph, you seem to have other
information than I have.

Willy.

| Andrew
|
|
| "Willy Denoyette [MVP]" <willy.denoyette@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
| news:%23PKs9tNMGHA.3896@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
| > IMO they don't care, C++ ISO, C++/CLI, C#, VB.NET you name it, as long
as
| > they use one of their products.
| >
| > Willy.
| >
| > "rellik" <nospam@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
| > news:IzXHf.93$m13.60@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
| > | >
| > | > And how many (of the vast majority) will never embrace C++/CLI? Do
you
| > | > think
| > | > they will do when STL/CLR becomes available?
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| > | Well, presumably Microsoft's goal is to get the vast majority of C++
| > | programmers on the PC compiling to C++/CLI at some stage.
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > | >
| > | > | 2. Managed types are basically incompatible with the standard
| > library.
| > | > | (alright there's the gcroot gludge, and workarounds, but that's
what
| > | > they
| > | > | are cludge and workarounds)
| > | > |
| > | >
| > | > Not sure what you mean here, why do you compare "managed types (or
CLI
| > | > types
| > | > to be exact) to a library like the STL?
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| > | I'm not comparing managed types with the STL. I'm saying managed types
| > are
| > | incompatible with the standard library. The STL is the largest part of
| > the
| > | standard library, therefore managed types are incompatible with the
| > standard
| > | library. From your previous posts I presume you are not a C++
programmer
| > as
| > | your exposure to the standard library appears to be somewhat limited,
| > | however, one example of this incompatibility is the inability to use
| > managed
| > | types in the standard containers.
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > | -Liam
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|


.

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