Re: Tool to mark code which has been executed

On May 2, 1:19 pm, "Michel Posseth [MCP]" <M...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Carl Ganz" <seton.softw...@xxxxxxxxxxx> schreef in berichtnews:3a71fcba-4df2-4ce5-a75e-eec9f67ff3bc@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On May 2, 6:43 am, "Michel Posseth  [MCP]" <M...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"Tom Shelton" <tom_shel...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> schreef in
berichtnews:OOJdN3%23qIHA.1228@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

On 2008-05-01, Carl Ganz <seton.softw...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On May 1, 6:59 pm, Tom Shelton
<tom_shel...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 2008-05-01, Carl Ganz <seton.softw...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On May 1, 5:10 pm, Tom Shelton
<tom_shel...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 2008-05-01, Michel Posseth [MCP] <M...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

By the way, if you don't mind my asking, why would you want to
convert
from VB.NET to C# once you have a working product? I'm just
curious
on the justification for that...

Because they have a incredible stupid management / project leader
I can not think of anny valid reasson why someone would do such a
stupid
thing , this is flushing company monney through the toilet

Unless they are planning to outsource the maintenance of the hole
project to
a external party where all coders are C# coders

Why would someone abandon the language that he has built programs
with for
years , wich has the biggest comunity , is the easiest to learn ,
has
cheaper programmers ( it is a fact that C# proggers earn more
don`t
ask me
why ? ) , has the biggest user base etc etc etc

just my opinion

Michel

I somewhat agree... Which is why I asked the question :) I
personally
prefer C# over VB.NET - but, it seems to me to be silly to spend
the
time, effort, and money to port the application twice...

--
Tom Shelton- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Because they want to do this gradually so the existing staff can
adapt
to the changer better. They are all VB6 developers and management
feels that it would be too difficult to go directly to C#.

Definately... It would be much easier to convert to VB.NET the C#.

This is
mostly spaghetti code (its a real mess) so we're going to upgrade to
a
VB.NET compiled mess, then restricture it n-tier with real OO
architecture in VB.NET with Option Strict On,

Sounds like a good plan up to here... After that is what I'm confused
about. Like I said, I'm a C# developer - but it does seem a bit
strange
to move to VB.NET, get it all nice and tidy and then convert to C#.
You
don't gain anything from the move really, and since your devs are
already VB guys, why move them to another language. I think this is
where the disconnect is for me. Obviously, your not the guy in
charge -
but someone I think is a little confused, it's not like C# is faster
or
there are tons of things that you can do in C# that you can't do in
VB.NET. And even if you need one or two of those things, you do a
library in C# and use it from your vb.net app. Sorry - I just don't
see
how they can justify the expense of 3 conversions (vb6->vb.net, vb.net
mess -> vb.net clean, vb.net clean -> c#). And as someone pointed out,
once those guys realize that C# programmers make substantially more (I
really don't understand why this is so), they might have to raise
their
salaries to maintain developers. They will definately have to pay more
to any new highers....

Don't get me wrong, I'm not comming after you - I'm just baffeled by
this sort of decision.

--
Tom Shelton- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I haven't even told you the whole story! They're still modifying the
VB6 program while we're doing the VB.NET upgrade. Then they'll freeze
the VB6 development and we need to compare the VB6 code before/after
mods to make the same mods in VB.NET. Then we can clean it up and
convert to C#.

You're right, I'm not the guy in charge and I'm baffled too. I did
manage to convince the firm to make C# their main language. The
developers are really old school VB6 people who have been there at
least 10 years each and are having a hard-time changing. I told them
that they picked the wrong profession if they can't handle change.
These people don't even use stored procs. They drop in-line SQL
wherever they need it in the code. I convinced them that this was a
bad idea and we can use them now.

Sigh.

Carl

Well... good luck :)

--
Tom Shelton

"You're right, I'm not the guy in charge and I'm baffled too. I did
manage to convince the firm to make C# their main language. The
developers are really old school VB6 people who have been there at
least 10 years each and are having a hard-time changing. I told them
that they picked the wrong profession if they can't handle change.
These people don't even use stored procs. They drop in-line SQL
wherever they need it in the code. I convinced them that this was a
bad idea and we can use them now."

This is where you went wrong !

Coders who come from Java , C , C++ or anny other curly brace language
feel
much more at home in C# Coders who come from COBOL , FORTRAN , or anny
Basic
variant ( Business Basic , QBasic , VB legacy ) or for a fact anny other
logic operator syntax language ( this could even include python and PHP )
feel mostly much more at home in VB.Net

Forcing VB coders to code in C# will result in .

Coders with lots of business knowledge leaving the companny

Coders who can`t keep up good quality of coding in this "new" language ,
wich will result in longer development cycles , higher maintenance costs
etc etc etc

Coders who might pick up C# pretty quickly ( i dare to say that i can code
as good in C# as in VB ( anny version including legacy ) however as it is
not my native language it takes me 10 times longer to code it , however
lets
say you have a VB coder who really likes the language and favors C# above
VB
why would he work for the companny if he can make annywhere else a few k`s
a
year more ? , and as extra bonus gets more respect from ignorant people
like
you who think C# is bether as VB.Net * wich for a fact it isn`t , it has
just a bether reputation

* You can code just as bad in C# as you can with VB and vice versa , You
can
code as good OOP in C# as you can in VB etc etc etc etc

"VB6 people who have been there at least 10 years"

I started with "Basic" on the C64 in the mid eighties at 13 years of age i
am now 34 years of age so 21 years of basic experience here but i
currently
Code mainly in VS.Net 2008 , for a fact the companny i work for was a
early
adaptor of VS.Net 2008 we rewrote all our projects in November 2007 from
2005 to 2008 and yes we code with Option explicit ON , Option strict ON
and
Option Infer ON .

What i try to say is that anny coder in whatever language he codes should
upgrade his skills when necesary , i always play with Beta MSDN versions
and
when i see something that i can use i make a proposition to my Boss to use
it if i can back it up cost efficiently .

"These people don't even use stored procs"

An why should they have to do this ? , if they code in IO routines (
seperate modules that can be shared among projects ) this might even be a
bether choice in certain situations , i for a fact have once written a
program that could connect to MSSQL , ACCESS , ORACLE , and MYSQL just by
using DBInterfaces in generic classes if you split the data logic there is
nothing wrong with plain SQL How do you think the MS data adapter wizzards
retrieve there data ?

SP`s are the most interesting when you do data batches cause only in these
situation you benefit from the compiled execution plan in other situation
a
Plain SQL statement might even be much faster for data IO , If you think i
am full of $%%$ read a few books of Bill Vaughn and Buy yourself the
Inside SQL server series ( especially the Delany book ) .

IMHO

You have made a bad proposition to your boss the costs of development will
go sky high in the near future and the quality will go down the drain, but
hey this is just experience speaking .- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You're making a number of assumptions here which are incorrect:

<<Coders with lots of business knowledge leaving the companny>>

The people who are rebuilding the app in C# will then have the
business knowledge and move in to replace the few who leave. I doubt
these VB people will leave anyway and I don't see them getting jobs
elsewhere.

<<Coders who can`t keep up good quality of coding in this "new"
language ,
 wich will result in longer development cycles , higher  maintenance
costs
 etc etc etc>>

Costs will go down as mods will be far more manageable. The VB people
will be assigned tasks befitting their skill sets until they come up
to speed. No one expesct them to become gurus overnight.

<,* You can code just as bad in C# as you can with VB and vice versa ,
You can
 code as good OOP in C# as you can in VB etc etc etc etc>>

I agree with you 100%. We 're putiing new standards in place to amke
sure speaghetti code doesn't return in the "just-make-it-work"
atnosphere they've always had here.

<< more respect from ignorant people like

you who think C# is bether as VB.Net   * wich for a fact it isn`t , it has
just a bether reputation>>

C'mon, name calling is appropriate in these forums, Its
unprofessional. In my memo to management I never said, nor do I
belive, that C# is "better" than VB. My point was that the market is
heading to C# and VB is becoming more and more marginlized. We're in
th NYC so at least that's the case here. All the recruiters I speak to
say that most of their reqs are C#. I went to C# for business reasons,
not technical ones. It seems the best people are all interedted in C#.
That's the market reality I hear from many people involved in hiring.

<<Option explicit ON , Option strict ON and  Option Infer ON >>

Wonderful, and if these people did the same thing they would be in a
smaller mess right now.

I also never said we couldn't use in-line SQL. I just don't want it
dropped all over creation. Organize it into separate classes so it can
be managed better. There are times where they are building
hierarchical data from relational tables so rather then executed 100s
or 1000s of SQL sattements they could do all the work in an SP and
avoid the lower network IO.

Carl
------------

 Carl,

"C'mon, name calling is appropriate in these forums, , Its
unprofessional. ..........."

First of all sorry if this was offending you but it was certainly not my
intention ( remember i am not a native English speaker )
With ignorant people i mean those people  outta there that bash VB in favor
of C# while the two are both serving there purpose

"My point was that the market is
heading to C# and VB is becoming more and more marginlized. We're in
th NYC so at least that's the case here. All the recruiters I speak to
say that most of their reqs are C#. I went to C# for business reasons"

Well  it is a self  furfilling prophecy  because everyone is saying  that C#
is the "bether" language managers want to hire C# coders
because there are not enough C# coders the prizes of these people rise .

You can take a scholar and teach him / her VB.Net in weeks and thus
profitable in a few months , try the same with C#  this is the reasson that
VB will never go away , the learning curve is to high for most people for C#
.

And this is also  exactly the problem  that VB is facing as it is such an
easy to learn language it has a verry hughe user base of non professional
coders
however some interview questions when hiring should tackle this.

The market is certainly not heading to C#  not internationaly  have you ever
heard of the TIOBE index ?http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
As you see VB is rising while C# is stable  and the last listing is from
April

VB.Net  has another  great benefit above all other .Net languages it is a
true RAD  language a simple example is raise events  VB builds the necesay
delegates for you where in C# you have to code them   this means that a
skilled VB developer can code faster as a C# developer with equal knowledge
can .

I believe your companny would have been bether of to switch to VB.Net with
option infer and strict ON , and give the VB6 proggers a good book to read
like "Programming Microsoft Visual basic .Net"  from Francesco Balena as it
has special attentions for VB legacy programmers

Then if they have the skills to abandon the VB namespace completely remove
the VB namespace dll ( wich will make VB a non RAD just as C# cause you
loose all the helper functions  )  if they can do that well then they can
also write common  C# code if they can learn to keep track of the curly
braces and weird variable declarations     :-)

For the rest i believe we speak the same language , if i read your response
and between the lines you try to make from bad VB6 coders ( the people that
say Huh ??? if you ask them  "is this database BCNF " )  good C# coders well
i wish you lots of luck but i fear the most of them won`t survive :-|

regards

Michel Posseth [MCP]

Michel

<,The market is certainly not heading to C# not internationaly have
you ever
heard of the TIOBE index ? >>

This is very interesting. Thanks for telling me about this as I will
monitor this very closely from now on.

BTW, your English is excellent.

Thanks

Carl


.

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