Re: Tool to mark code which has been executed

On May 2, 6:43 am, "Michel Posseth [MCP]" <M...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Tom Shelton" <tom_shel...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> schreef in berichtnews:OOJdN3%23qIHA.1228@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx





On 2008-05-01, Carl Ganz <seton.softw...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On May 1, 6:59 pm, Tom Shelton
<tom_shel...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 2008-05-01, Carl Ganz <seton.softw...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On May 1, 5:10 pm, Tom Shelton
<tom_shel...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On 2008-05-01, Michel Posseth [MCP] <M...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

By the way, if you don't mind my asking, why would you want to
convert
from VB.NET to C# once you have a working product? I'm just
curious
on the justification for that...

Because they have a incredible stupid management / project leader
I can not think of anny valid reasson why someone would do such a
stupid
thing , this is flushing company monney through the toilet

Unless they are planning to outsource the maintenance of the hole
project to
a external party where all coders are C# coders

Why would someone abandon the language that he has built programs
with for
years , wich has the biggest comunity , is the easiest to learn ,
has
cheaper programmers ( it is a fact that C# proggers earn more don`t
ask me
why ? ) , has the biggest user base etc etc etc

just my opinion

Michel

I somewhat agree... Which is why I asked the question :) I personally
prefer C# over VB.NET - but, it seems to me to be silly to spend the
time, effort, and money to port the application twice...

--
Tom Shelton- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Because they want to do this gradually so the existing staff can adapt
to the changer better. They are all VB6 developers and management
feels that it would be too difficult to go directly to C#.

Definately... It would be much easier to convert to VB.NET the C#.

This is
mostly spaghetti code (its a real mess) so we're going to upgrade to a
VB.NET compiled mess, then restricture it n-tier with real OO
architecture in VB.NET with Option Strict On,

Sounds like a good plan up to here... After that is what I'm confused
about. Like I said, I'm a C# developer - but it does seem a bit strange
to move to VB.NET, get it all nice and tidy and then convert to C#. You
don't gain anything from the move really, and since your devs are
already VB guys, why move them to another language. I think this is
where the disconnect is for me. Obviously, your not the guy in charge -
but someone I think is a little confused, it's not like C# is faster or
there are tons of things that you can do in C# that you can't do in
VB.NET. And even if you need one or two of those things, you do a
library in C# and use it from your vb.net app. Sorry - I just don't see
how they can justify the expense of 3 conversions (vb6->vb.net, vb.net
mess -> vb.net clean, vb.net clean -> c#). And as someone pointed out,
once those guys realize that C# programmers make substantially more (I
really don't understand why this is so), they might have to raise their
salaries to maintain developers. They will definately have to pay more
to any new highers....

Don't get me wrong, I'm not comming after you - I'm just baffeled by
this sort of decision.

--
Tom Shelton- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I haven't even told you the whole story! They're still modifying the
VB6 program while we're doing the VB.NET upgrade. Then they'll freeze
the VB6 development and we need to compare the VB6 code before/after
mods to make the same mods in VB.NET. Then we can clean it up and
convert to C#.

You're right, I'm not the guy in charge and I'm baffled too. I did
manage to convince the firm to make C# their main language. The
developers are really old school VB6 people who have been there at
least 10 years each and are having a hard-time changing. I told them
that they picked the wrong profession if they can't handle change.
These people don't even use stored procs. They drop in-line SQL
wherever they need it in the code. I convinced them that this was a
bad idea and we can use them now.

Sigh.

Carl

Well... good luck :)

--
Tom Shelton

"You're right, I'm not the guy in charge and I'm baffled too. I did
manage to convince the firm to make C# their main language. The
developers are really old school VB6 people who have been there at
least 10 years each and are having a hard-time changing. I told them
that they picked the wrong profession if they can't handle change.
These people don't even use stored procs. They drop in-line SQL
wherever they need it in the code. I convinced them that this was a
bad idea and we can use them now."

This is where you went wrong !

Coders who come from Java , C , C++ or anny other curly brace language feel
much more at home in C# Coders who come from COBOL , FORTRAN , or anny Basic
variant  ( Business Basic , QBasic , VB legacy ) or for a fact anny other
logic operator syntax language ( this could even include python and PHP )
feel mostly much more at home in VB.Net

Forcing  VB coders to code in C# will result in .

Coders with lots of business knowledge leaving the companny

Coders who can`t keep up good quality of coding in this "new" language ,
wich will result in longer development cycles , higher  maintenance costs
etc etc etc

Coders who might pick up C# pretty quickly ( i dare to say that i can code
as good in C# as in VB ( anny version including legacy  ) however as it is
not my native language it takes me 10 times longer to code it , however lets
say you have a VB coder who really likes the language and favors C# above VB
why would he work for the companny if he can make annywhere else a few k`s a
year more ? , and as extra bonus gets more respect from ignorant people like
you who think C# is bether as VB.Net   * wich for a fact it isn`t , it has
just a bether reputation

* You can code just as bad in C# as you can with VB and vice versa , You can
code as good OOP in C# as you can in VB etc etc etc etc

"VB6 people who have been there at least 10 years"

I started with "Basic" on the C64 in the mid eighties at 13 years of age i
am now 34 years of age so 21 years of basic experience here but i currently
Code mainly in VS.Net 2008  , for a fact the companny i work for was a early
adaptor of VS.Net 2008 we rewrote all our projects in November 2007 from
2005 to 2008  and yes we code with Option explicit ON , Option strict ON and
Option Infer ON  .

What i try to say is that anny coder in whatever language he codes should
upgrade his skills when necesary , i always play with Beta MSDN versions and
when i see something that i can use i make a proposition to my Boss to use
it  if i can back it up cost efficiently .

"These people don't even use stored procs"

An why should they have to do this ?  , if they code in IO routines (
seperate   modules that can be shared among projects ) this might even be a
bether choice in certain situations   , i for a fact have once written a
program that could connect to MSSQL , ACCESS , ORACLE , and MYSQL just by
using DBInterfaces in generic classes if you split the data logic there is
nothing wrong with plain SQL   How do you think the MS data adapter wizzards
retrieve there data ?

SP`s are the most interesting when you do data batches cause only in these
situation you benefit from the compiled execution plan in other situation a
Plain SQL statement might even be much faster for data IO , If you think i
am full of $%%$  read a few books of Bill Vaughn  and Buy yourself the
Inside SQL server series ( especially the Delany book ) .

IMHO

You have made a bad proposition to your boss the costs of development will
go sky high in the near future and the quality will go down the drain,  but
hey this is just experience speaking   .- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


You're making a number of assumptions here which are incorrect:

<<Coders with lots of business knowledge leaving the companny>>

The people who are rebuilding the app in C# will then have the
business knowledge and move in to replace the few who leave. I doubt
these VB people will leave anyway and I don't see them getting jobs
elsewhere.


<<Coders who can`t keep up good quality of coding in this "new"
language ,
wich will result in longer development cycles , higher maintenance
costs
etc etc etc>>

Costs will go down as mods will be far more manageable. The VB people
will be assigned tasks befitting their skill sets until they come up
to speed. No one expesct them to become gurus overnight.

<,* You can code just as bad in C# as you can with VB and vice versa ,
You can
code as good OOP in C# as you can in VB etc etc etc etc>>

I agree with you 100%. We 're putiing new standards in place to amke
sure speaghetti code doesn't return in the "just-make-it-work"
atnosphere they've always had here.


<< more respect from ignorant people like
you who think C# is bether as VB.Net * wich for a fact it isn`t , it has
just a bether reputation>>

C'mon, name calling is appropriate in these forums, Its
unprofessional. In my memo to management I never said, nor do I
belive, that C# is "better" than VB. My point was that the market is
heading to C# and VB is becoming more and more marginlized. We're in
th NYC so at least that's the case here. All the recruiters I speak to
say that most of their reqs are C#. I went to C# for business reasons,
not technical ones. It seems the best people are all interedted in C#.
That's the market reality I hear from many people involved in hiring.

<<Option explicit ON , Option strict ON and Option Infer ON >>

Wonderful, and if these people did the same thing they would be in a
smaller mess right now.

I also never said we couldn't use in-line SQL. I just don't want it
dropped all over creation. Organize it into separate classes so it can
be managed better. There are times where they are building
hierarchical data from relational tables so rather then executed 100s
or 1000s of SQL sattements they could do all the work in an SP and
avoid the lower network IO.

Carl


.

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