Re: Killing VB softly with his song, Killing VB softly...with a song.............


"clintonG" <csgallagher@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:OyJNVGA2FHA.3524@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Well Scott, keeping it light here but I think it is your rebuttal that is
> flawed -- if anything -- your rebuttal seems to be based on conveniently
> forgetting that it was C that was used to write the *nix operating systems
> from which the Internet and the web evolved. Without the fundamental
> recognition of that fact the entire focus of the topic gets lost on those
> who want to discuss the capabilities of a given language.

Hold on a sec here Clinton. What you've just said here is completely
irrelevant since Tim Berners-Lee's intent and the way the Internet has
evolved was to be platform-independant and not tied to any particular host.
There is nothing in the SGML/HTML/XML language(s) and/or DTD's that even
remotely suggest a platform, much less a preference for a compiled language.
In fact, by design, the web was built to work without regard for platform.
The only requirements were that you had to have an HTML parser and the
ability to communication over TCP/IP.

LiveScript was a proprietary, interpreted language that was an extension
added to the standard HTML parser embedded within Netscape 2.0. Livescript
was so popular, that Netscape enhanced and formalized its "macro language"
for the browser as JavaScript. Now, if we're going to get specific here and
keep to the facts, then let's be clear that ECMA Script is the de-facto
standard scripting lanague of the web, not necessarially JavaScript.

> Please note the entire topic is about one phenomena and only one phenomena
> which has nothing to do with the capabilities of any language or any
> framework for that matter. The topic is about syntax and grammar and only
> syntax and grammar and how the trend to consolidate on a single syntax and
> grammar which happens to have its roots in the legacy of the C language is
> a trend that will in due time erode the use of languages such as VB which
> do not use syntax and grammar which has been derived from C. That trend is
> occuring because of the return of the primary focus to client-side
> development.

But, I think that you've missed your own point here. This is not the first
time in this thread that you've tried to set someone straight on what the
"topic" at hand is and then set your own definition for that "topic". To
dismiss the comments of others that don't specifically fall into your narrow
definition of what the topic is (in your view) would probably be unwise,
since those comments are being made to give you another perspective.

If you want to limit the discussion to the fact the Java, JavaScript, C#, J#
(and others) derive from C and their syntaxes are fairly similar and you
simply want to say that learning one of these is a fast road to learning the
others, then fine. It's a little like saying that water is wet, though.

My impression of your post was outside of what you are now stating your
point was.

> I did not mean to convey VB will go away but I do believe in the course of
> time the economy VB provides with its RAD features will likely be
> over-shadowed by the need to write more and more client-side code which
> will erode the utility value of VB because client-side code requires a
> mastery of the legacy of C and the use of JavaScript. So when someone
> asks...

Well, I think you've missed my point here. Try to follow: If someone were
to have mastered VB .NET (understand its syntax, the full range of OO
capabilities is offeres, etc.), it is NOT very difficult at all to go to a
language like C#, Java or JavaScript because, although I might now use the
semi-colon and curly brace a hell of a lot more than I ever did in VB .NET,
I still have to write well-performing, clear and concise code. It's not
brain surgeroy to learn a new language, when you already know the equivelant
concepts (and in some situations: syntax). VB.NET: "me" equates to
Java/JavaScript: "this".

More on this below.

>> Why should I bother learning a cryptic, punctuation-oriented,
>> case-sensitve language, when I can learn VB .NET (RAD) and work in a very
>> powerful IDE?".
>
> The short answer may very well prove to be that your job may depend on it.

I think you should have just said in the begining:

"Client-side code is/has becomming/become more and more important to web
development as each day passes. Having good skills there will be crucial to
presentation layer web development in the future. If you have a background
in C-like languages, you should have an leg-up in learning the de-facto ECMA
Script language of client-side web development."

and not invited any responses to your post. But, that's not what you said.
You brought in and questioned the VB language's future role in web
development as a whole and what I've simply been trying to say is that what
you are making out to be a hard thing (going from C-like languages to VB and
vice/versa) isn't the hard thing that you've been saying it is. My point is
that if you are a good OO programmer, you shouldn't have much of a problem
at all. My secondary point was to say that although VB.NET may stick out as
a lone, non-C-like language, its past and present would seem to indicate
that as far as server-side programming is concerned it is anything but being
eroded. If anything, it is taking market share away from those C-like
languages you have been talking about. Sure C# is very popular, but there
are now thousands of Java developers who are taking a look at something they
never would have dreamed of before, VB.NET and using it for its many
advantages over the J2EE development environment. Again, the fact that
those Java developers have to learn new syntax is besides-the-point if they
already are familiar with OO concepts and good programming practices.

Just my opinion...I could be wrong.

-Scott :)






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> <%= Clinton Gallagher
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> "Scott M." <s-mar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:%23pS5Ai91FHA.908@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Clinton:
>>
>> If you go back and read your posts, you'll find them peppered with words
>> like many and most quite often. You are stating your opinion as if it
>> were fact, and that is where I think the flaw in your argument lies.
>>
>> Where did you come up with your assesment that the syntax of the web lies
>> in C or C based languages? This is not a fact, it is an opinion. If you
>> really want to get technical about it (and use some facts as well), the
>> syntax of the web is based in markup. HTML, XML and now XHTML (which all
>> stem from SGML) are the syntaxes, DTD's (and now Schemas) provide the
>> grammar.
>>
>> What you are talking about is object-oriented programming languages that
>> can be used for server-side web application logic (but do not have to
>> only be used for this purpose). These languages do not have any inherant
>> tie to the web. There may be classes in their respective frameworks that
>> aid in web development, but the language itself is not client or server
>> specific.
>>
>> So, we come back to the question of which of these languages should one
>> use and the each have their own pro's and con's. Yes, it's true that C,
>> C++, Java, C# and J# share in much of their actual language syntax. So,
>> yes it is true that learning one of these would give you a leg up in
>> learning the others. But, I think your opinion has missed the mark when
>> you go on to isolate VB and seem to say that if one were to learn VB,
>> they would not have gotten the 3 for 1 that you might get from learning,
>> say Java. If you learn VB .NET thoughroughly and understand it, you
>> should have no problem at all picking up on some of the different syntax
>> (and here's the important part) for the SAME behaviors available in VB
>> .NET.
>>
>> As I stated in my first reply, history has something to say about your
>> postulation that VB will go away. Throughout all the incarnations of the
>> Web, the fact that Java has now been around for a decade (JavaScript a
>> bit longer) and VB is not only "still here, stumbling along", but it is
>> better than ever. Couple this with the fact that there really isn't
>> anything that you can do in Java or C# that can't be done in VB .NET and
>> you may begin to think; "Why should I bother learning a cryptic,
>> punctuation-oriented, case-sensitve language, when I can learn VB .NET
>> (RAD) and work in a very powerful IDE?".
>>
>> -Scott
>>
>>
>> "clintonG" <csgallagher@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
>> message news:uZbmwTy1FHA.2008@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> <snip />
>>>
>>> This topic is not and was not meant to be about which language per se
>>> but about which syntax and which grammar has become the defacto standard
>>> for most languages that are being used at this point in time to develop
>>> most applications for the most significant endeavor in the history of
>>> mankind's efforts to involve themselves with a computer science. That is
>>> of course the Internet manifested in a form useable by humans we know as
>>> the web and the syntax and grammar that which has been derived from C in
>>> this context.
>>>
>>> Blame Thompson and Ritchie if you must but there's no denying that the
>>> legacy of C [1] has become the legacy of the web and this legacy is best
>>> expressed in its totality in the client and an overwhelming presence on
>>> the server by Java and C# as well as other languages that are very
>>> C-like.
>>>
>>> This contention is and has been continually proven by Software
>>> Magazine's annual surveys. This year -- again as I recall -- the most
>>> often used languages as cited by survey respondents are Java followed by
>>> C#. To be honest this confuses me as the classifieds rarely ask for C#
>>> when seeking .NET developers. The classifieds it seems are almost always
>>> seeking VB.NET developers. Not to denigrate VB anymore than it seems but
>>> I believe this phenomena to be a hold over from the past (and current)
>>> success of VB itself and the monkey-see monkey-do behavioral model
>>> present in most management processes more so than the understanding of
>>> which syntax and language offers the most efficient and highest use of
>>> one's resources and one's willingness and ability to adapt to change to
>>> the current paradigm.
>>>
>>> Actually, if there would be a single person to look to in this regard of
>>> the legacy itself it would have to be Brendan Eich the author of
>>> JavaScript [2] whose decision to reuse the C syntax and grammar has
>>> changed software development as we know it, as again, it is the
>>> phenomena of the web that has become the deciding factor and the legacy
>>> of C is rapidily becoming prevalent. I think Google is making this point
>>> perfectly clear [3].
>>>
>>> So again, I note many languages do not fit this paradigm and many
>>> languages will continue to be used and new languages will continue to be
>>> developed. Ruby comes to mind as I find a need to learn this language
>>> for certain aspirations I hold in the practice of architecture where I
>>> was formally educated, trained, and where much of my thinking processes
>>> have been influenced by an immersion into classical thought and
>>> philosophy.
>>>
>>> Regardless, that does not change the fundamental premise of my
>>> contentious postulation, that being, in the course of time the VB syntax
>>> and grammar [4] will continue to be killed softly by this song.
>>>
>>> It is interesting to note the wikipedia disclaimer for those recoding
>>> the history of Visual Basic [3]. That there are contentious and biased
>>> points of view we all hold is of no question none of which however
>>> change the facts. I like VB myself but one day I had the "learn three
>>> for the price of one" epiphany and realized I was compelled to think
>>> pragmatically and was therefore compelled to adopt the legacy provided
>>> to us by men such as Thompson,Ritchie and Eich.
>>>
>>> That's all there is to it for me as a person who happens to have what
>>> some may call a deep insight if you will as I am rarely incorrect in my
>>> prognostications. People that know me over a period of time have told me
>>> for years I would do much better in the stock market and financial
>>> management because I have an uncanny ability to see a trend early in the
>>> curve and call which horse will win the race. But alas, I am a stubborn
>>> fool.
>>>
>>> It is only because I am also a maverick that I have avoided that pursuit
>>> in favor of my current endeavors which compel me to say "sorry fellas"
>>> because it really looks like the VB syntax and grammar has seen its
>>> heyday [5], Microsoft's efforts to retain the loyalty of VB developers
>>> not withstanding, the VB syntax and grammar is in the process of
>>> becoming relegated to the annals of history to take its place as second
>>> fiddle in this symphany of the web where I find myself lucky enough to
>>> have found a seat in the orchestra which I credit to my willingness to
>>> learn, my predilection towards change, and my ability to read the ***
>>> music which the conductor has made clear: This symphany is to be played
>>> in the key of the legacy of C.
>>>
>>> <%= Clinton Gallagher
>>> METROmilwaukee (sm) "A Regional Information Service"
>>> NET csgallagher AT metromilwaukee.com
>>> URL http://metromilwaukee.com/
>>> URL http://clintongallagher.metromilwaukee.com/
>>>
>>> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_programming_language
>>> [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javascript
>>> [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AJAX
>>> [4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_programming_language
>>> [5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_BASIC
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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