Re: Future of C#

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Jon Skeet [C# MVP] wrote:
Jon Harrop <jon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
. I'd like to break down market size (in $) by programming language.

. I'd like to know what languages scientists want tools for.

. I'd like to predict the future of the language landscape.

I think the first is much harder.

I also suspect that the first would show a far greater dollar amount
for C# than for ML, however.

There's no point in speculating without any quantitative evidence.
Particularly if you are totally unaware of ML.

As you say, there are huge numbers of C# developers but their efficiency
at creating wealth is orders of magnitude lower than that of an ML
developer.

You state that as if it's a fact. Care to back it up with statistics?

Sure:

Windows once had an appalling reputation for being plagued by crippling
bugs. Microsoft did not even know where these bugs were in their operating
system. A team led by Gordon Mangione pioneered the use of automated error
throwback to Microsoft and discovered that 80% of the bugs were actually in
third-party driver code.

As a consequence, Microsoft stopped pouring money into hundreds of testers
trying to maintain their low-level code and built a group to perform static
verification of drivers using tools written in OCaml. They succeeded in
removing many of the most important bugs and the reliability of the whole
platform improved enormously as a consequence.

How many developers were displaced by the ML developer and how what is the
monetary value of stability to Microsoft?

Given that you're an F# evangelist, you can hardly be viewed as
unbiased.

My job wouldn't exist if my statement weren't true.

Absolutely but without knowing how many C# developers can be automated by
a single ML developer that information has no practical use (unless
you're in job advertising).

No, the information has practical use in terms of knowing how
widespread use of C# is - using "widespread" in the common meaning of
the term rather than yours.

What use?

Absolutely. I'm here to sell spades rather than dig for gold.

And the fact that you're on a C# group specifically to promote a
different language is rather interesting too. Most people here are
interested in solving C# questions rather than changing languages. Do
you regularly go to parties and say, "Hey, there's a better party
across the road"?

Better than standing outside the C# party, making myself extra visible and
acting as a high-class spammer for scraps. Apparently MVPs are legal in
Australia. ;-)

Right. Sudoku is widespread because it is heavily advertised and not
because it is valuable. There is money in the Sudoku market but nothing
like as much as in calculus.

But the point is that it's widespread - and the introduction of
comparisons between Sudoku and calculus was to illustrate the meaning
of the term "widespread" as far as most people understand it.

Actually I introduced Sudoku and calculus to this conversation to illustrate
the difference between common and valuable.

Now, are you going to finally admit that in the *normal* understanding
of the word "widespread", C# is far more widespread than ML?

On the contrary, I think calculus is widespread and valuable but Sudoku is
common but domain specific.

I'm glad that web programmers consider themselves to be significant. I'm
sure they do a lot of good work, like FaceBook, but I know very little of
it.

There are many, many systems (whether web based or not) which are
internal to companies, or only exposed within commercial contracts, but
which are nevertheless productive.

Sure. XenSource do that and its written in C#. Well, the intermediate
language is C#. It is actually generated by OCaml code. ;-)

Java is unquestionably a dominant force in games programming.

Care to stand up in a games development conference and claim that with
a straight face? When talking about games on mobile phones you could be
right, but outside that very specific market Java has very little
presence.

Care to name a single top 10 game for either the PC, Wii, XBox 360,
PS3, GameCube, PS2, XBox, DS, PSP or GBA which was primarily Java-
based?

You've changed your tune. You don't want to compare languages my monetary
value but you want to compare games by subsidy rather than units sold.

Notice how none of these reasons are specific to C# - they're about the
.NET platform.

Well, that's like having a democratic vote with a single candidate.

I don't see your analogy at all - and importantly, they are all reasons
which will count against F# as well as C#. The same changes which might
drive F# adoption for scientific computing will also make C# adoption
easier.

Try using the complex number implementation from the F# stdlib in C#, or the
Extreme Optimization library's C# API from F#.

--
Dr Jon D Harrop, Flying Frog Consultancy
http://www.ffconsultancy.com/products/?u
.

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