Re: ... - Coming Very Soon

Tech-Archive recommends: Repair Windows Errors & Optimize Windows Performance

On Fri, 25 May 2007 13:38:15 -0700, Jon Harrop <jon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

We can speculate either way but only a fraction of a percent of the people
who've read Robert's post felt strongly enough either way to voice their
opinions.

It is always the case that even as a large number of people may be upset about something, few people feel strongly enough to be motivated to *do* something about it. This is no different. Don't confuse lack of input with lack of concern or lack of opinion.

As common as it is, it's also completely faulty logic. It fails to
recognize the investment in the future, to attempt to keep the newsgroup
better *in the long run*.

You see discussing turnip trucks as an "investment in the future"?

You keep bringing up "turnip trucks". Why is that? Frankly, I am of the opinion that you already are aware of the broad rejection of advertising as part of the newsgroup community. However, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but the only way to do that is to assume that you really do have a naive, "born yesterday" knowledge of newsgroups. In other words, "just fell off the turnip truck".

If you're offended by the "turnip truck" comment, all that means is that my suspicion is correct and that you *are* being disingenuous by feigning ignorance of the community-wide "no advertising" standard.

Regardless, I do not see a newsgroup free of adverts by plagued by petty
insults as better in the long run. Not only is this worse, there is nothing we can do to stop the trend.

What petty insults? Is this still about the turnip truck? As I mentioned, I was simply giving you the benefit of the doubt. I don't see how you can be offended by that. But then, you seem to be taking offense at a broad variety of inoffensive comments, so...whatever.

Just as you completely fail to see the long-term benefits in rejecting
commercial advertising in the newsgroup, you also fail to see the
long-term benefit in accepting a short-term off-topic digression to try to combat commercial advertising in the newsgroup.

Interesting that you chose to phrase that as "you fail to see ..." rather
than "let me tell you my vision of the future ...".

Why is that interesting? This isn't about my vision of the future. It's about the *current* state of affairs, and the effort required to maintain it.

My garden looks nice *today*. If I want it to continue to look nice in the future, I have to weed it *today*. This isn't about some idealistic vision of the future. It's about how things are now, and what we need to do in order to preserve that. So yes, this is about your failure to see something, rather than some wishful hope for a new tomorrow.

Besides, inasmuch as the posts *are* about this newsgroup, they are
decidedly on-topic, in a meta-topic sort of way.

IMHO, Robert's post was more on-topic than many of the responses.

Only in your opinion though. And you obviously have an axe to grind, being an advertiser yourself.

Interesting. I think it is unfortunate that people are encouraged to dress
up their posts as "how do I do this in C#?" just to reduce the number of
insulting responses.

Now you are just making stuff up. Who is encouraged to dress up their posts as "how do I do this in C#" just to reduce the number of insulting responses.

This newsgroup is remarkably free of insulting responses, and in large part this is because nearly all of the messages are on-topic. If someone posted something that wasn't on-topic, but was dressed up as "how do I do this in C#", I doubt many people would be fooled, and the post would get the same derision it would deserve without the facade.

My vision of the future is that contributors won't
have to worry about plagues of insults.

Well, I have happy news for you: your vision of the future is here today. People who actually *contribute* absolutely do not have to worry about plagues of insults.

But we're not talking about contributors here...we're talking about advertisers.

However, the fact is that you are entirely correct.

I am correct, but not about what you claim I am. You are simply putting words into my mouth here.

Robert should have
dressed his post up in such a way, perhaps giving some trivial examples of
F# code that is very tedious to write in C# and cited some example F#
programs before explaining when it might be advisable for a C# programmer
to learn and use F#.

Baloney. He can dress his advertisement up as much as he wants, that wouldn't change the fact that it's an advertisement, and the fact that even if he left out a mention of his own product, any discussion explaining the use of F# is still off-topic here.

So Robert should have started by explaining that F# is a testbed for
features that may make it into C#?

How would that change things? Whether the claim is true or not, how he starts his advertisement doesn't change the fact that it's an advertisement.

He can put lipstick on his pig 'till the cows come home, it's still a pig.

Do you think that all of my posts are spam because they contain signatures that reference our products?

The short answer is "no". That said...

Frankly, I personally find signatures with advertising annoying. However, they are *much* more broadly accepted as reasonable advertising, especially when they are attached to messages that actually contribute to the newsgroup in positive ways. Your signature is more like you coming to a PC user's group meeting wearing a corporate-labeled t-shirt, and not very much at all like posting a whole new thread dedicated only to the advertisement of your product (which would be more like dedicating a PCUG meeting to the promotion of a particular manufacturer's product).

Balancing advertising and content is not easy.

Bull. This is a free forum, user-supported, and not in need of any advertiser support. Likewise, advertisers have no reasonable expectation that they should be able to take advantage of this free forum and use it for their own commercial gain. It is trivial to balance advertising and content here in this newsgroup: it should be all content, and no advertising.

Industry has shifted and many people now expect a lot for free.

What people can get for free, they do expect, true. So what?

This burdens people like Robert with the
task of learning the idiosyncrasies of each forum and tailoring the advert accordingly, watering it down with a suitable amount of interesting and
relevant technical content.

Actually, it burdens him in no such way. The general newsgroup community etiquette standards apply broadly, to all newsgroups unless otherwise specified. People like Robert (and that apparently includes you) should not expect to use newsgroups as an advertising medium *at all*. There is no requirement to "learn the idiosyncrasies of each forum" or to "tailor the advertisement", since he is not welcome to to advertise here in the first place.

For the few people who take the time and effort to write interesting and
informative articles that cite their commercial work, there is generally no
perceivable merit in worrying about the small group of people who
inevitably respond with wholly negative insults.

Again with the "insults". What insults? Advertisements are not welcome here. How is it an insult to say that?

As far as whether there is "perceivable merit", that goes back to the question of what's a good reason to avoid advertising. If the only question is the effect on net income, then that's a debatable point and an advertiser may well decide they will get more income with advertising than without (I disagree, but I admit it's debatable).

But that's not the only question. Some times we are expected to behave a certain way not because it benefits us directly, but because it benefits society as a whole. And this newsgroup is better off without advertising. I realize advertisers tend to ignore the social aspects of their business; either they rationalize it away, or they simply don't care that they are being anti-social. But the fact remains that the question of whether one should advertise here is NOT determined simply by the answer to whether doing so will improve net profits or not.

If you take the time to look, you'll note that this newsgroup is quite active, and includes a wealth of freely given advice and information. The vast majority of people who do so are not unemployed, nor do they have no outside commercial interests. And yet, somehow they manage to contribute to the newsgroup without making it their own forum for advertisements.

Generally, this is because
the people who object are precisely those whose lifestyle is provided for
by innovators like Robert.

What a remarkably arrogant and completely unfounded comment. I doubt a single person contributing to this thread to object to the advertisement is in any way aided by "innovators like Robert", never mind having a lifestyle provided for by him.

Pete
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: FAQ, Frequently Asked Questions autopost
    ... The FAQ will be posted bi-weekly to rasfc and maintained online at ... in the newsgroup or send them to the FAQ maintainer. ... Announcements, URL sharing, and Advertising policy ... There are many online and in person critique groups ...
    (rec.arts.sf.composition)
  • FAQ: rec.arts.sf.composition (incomplete)
    ... The general purpose of the FAQ is to inform ... The FAQ will be posted bi-weekly to rasfc and maintained online at ... them in the newsgroup or send them to the FAQ maintainer. ... Announcements, URL sharing, and Advertising policy ...
    (rec.arts.sf.composition)
  • FAQ: rec.arts.sf.composition (in process)
    ... The general purpose of the FAQ is to inform ... The FAQ will be posted bi-weekly to rasfc and maintained online at ... them in the newsgroup or send them to the FAQ maintainer. ... Announcements, URL sharing, and Advertising policy ...
    (rec.arts.sf.composition)
  • [FAQ] Posting and Advertising Guidelines for rec.crafts.jewelry
    ... Rec.crafts.jewelry is a moderated newsgroup, effective March, 1997. ... I've been the moderator of the group since it ... it clear it's a personal communication, and not a posting to the group). ... Posting topics, and Advertising guidelines... ...
    (rec.crafts.jewelry)
  • Re: HELP PLEASE
    ... help because i do need quiet a few moderators to help me run the site. ... Im definetly not advertising because if you did see the site, ... The vagueness and use of all-capital "shouting" makes your message look like one of the many, many spam posts that the newsgroup receives. ... The one quoted herein is the first where you specify that your site is a "mess right now", thus inducing a sense of sympathy on newsgroup participants to offer assistance. ...
    (comp.lang.java.help)