Re: VB or C?

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You don't want answers to your questions? Then why ask them?


"Tom Leylan" <tleylan@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:uFOvP9%23eHHA.4020@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Oh m'gosh Scott I thought this was over and here you go again.

"Scott M." <s-mar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:OH8FjX8eHHA.2376@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Would you if I claimed your opinion on Wikipedia was unfounded? I'm
going to guess not.

You guessed wrong.

I guessed correctly. I asked "would you fund a study" and the answer is
no.

When I scroll up, I see your question was: " Do you seriously think
anybody posting here is going to fund a study?". I replied "No". You
didn't ask if I would fund a study.

Alright but I would have thought the part you quoted (included here as
well) where I ask "Would you if I claimed your opinion on Wikipedia was
unfounded?" right after I asked the question you just confirmed would be
sufficient proof.

What amount is "most" of the job postings? Now, you've caught something
from Arne and doing exactly what you caught me doing with Wiki. This is
really just proving my point. The simple asnwer is, we just don't know
with any certanty what the ratio is.

Most if you'll accept the Free Online Dictionary's definition
(http://www.thefreedictionary.com/most) means the greatest in number.
I've searched the sites on a regular basis and if "respond to" is any
indication (and who knows perhaps companies are making it up) they are
most often directed to recruiting firms intent on filling a position (for
a commission) and not directly to the company offering the position. It
is intended to help filter out the totally unqualified respondents but
again I have no direct proof of this (merely my conversations with
recruiters) so perhaps it is because people have nothing better to do or
their friends do it or because they are mentally ill. It calls for
another survey and when I can raise the money (from an unbiased source)
I'll get back to you with the results.

Dice BTW had 95,786 jobs posted as of 3/1/07 with 37,781 contract
positions and 65,075 permanent. 18,290 mentioned C/C++ as necessary
skills. As of 4/2/07 the skills most in demand included J2EE/Java
followed by C/C++.

Nope, I'd say that until we got the other sources of data as well
(newspaper, etc.) and enough of each to provide a good sampling of
data.

You're thinking of jobs for the neighborhood coffee shop or entry level
work at the factory. There are no important newspaper listings for
senior level programmers in the newspaper.

So, you are now changing the original polling criteria? And, you are
making yet another assumption (about how many of a certain type of job
will be found where).

Meanwhile The Wall Street Journal has weighed in:
http://wsj.consumersearch.com/internet/job-sites/review.html

Perhaps you are concluding there are no studies because you personally
haven't read them but I'll go out on a limb and say yes, the CEO position
for the top 100 U.S. Corporations will not be posted in the help wanted
section of the local newspaper or posted on the cork board outside Hank's
market.

Sure, that's reasonable, but in your summary, you acknowledged that it is
not a *fact* that the butter was the culprit, it's just an informed
*opinion*. You were carefull about how you presented your feelings on
the matter. This is exactly what my point was with the Ginger Ale and
toast scenarios. It makes no sense to wrap an opinion (even an informed
one) as a fact.

They are not the same thing. Citing 3 friends who like a flavor of soda
is no where near the same as 3 out of 4 total strangers on randomly chosen
job sites reporting being sick after eating the same brand of some food.
You seem to be claiming the results should be considered "as relevant" and
they surely should not. When reports of tainted dog food came out
recently did you rush out and buy more of the suspected food to give to
your pets citing the lack of conclusive evidence? Would you have done so
if 3 of your friends said that their pets didn't die? The value of the
information is not the same.

We're on to your debate methods but I'm giving you a little more rope.
Of course it is relevant.

Not when you are conducting a scientific poll, it's not. You posted the
link, so obviously, you felt it was relavant. Are we or are we not
talking about a mechanism that yeilds an accurate result or not?

So this is all part of a scientific poll? I think you've mistakenly
connected to the Internet when you thought you were in a statistics course
at MIT.

You are making an assumption that non online sources wouldn't have any
meaningful jobs and using that assumption as a basis for excluding a
whole segment of data. You know what they say about assumptions, right?
:)

Read the reports at DICE and tell them they don't understand how the job
count in New York City (along with the other 9 cities they list as the top
tech job markets) is uninformed. Explain they didn't take Heart Butte,
Montana into consideration. With a population of 692 they might all be
VB.Net developers for gosh sake, you have to phone them to know for
certain.

What if they live in a large city, like Los Angeles? Where did
small-towns come into the picture? I didn't introduce that. You are
making another assumption about the quality of non online job listings.

Jobs at the Los Angeles Times are listed here on CareerBuilder.Com:
http://www.careerbuilder.com/JobSeeker/Companies/CompanyDetails.aspx?Comp_DID=C35J3799H32J0FZL9X&cbRecursionCnt=1&cbsid=f404954d9a08415c8514fc35e7f3302b-229563708-WP-2

If he wants to present his flawed stat. as a fact, yes he does.

Uhh. no he doesn't.

Maybe there aren't many, but you are again missing the point, you won't
know unless you look, will you? And, I'd like to piont out that you are
the only person discussing the availabilty of Senior Software Developers.
No one (even Arne) said that this is what the stat. represents. Husan's
original message does not ask about Senior Software Developers.

Right, you got me the Duluth paper was filled with job openings for VB
developers. There was the "garage mechanic needed" and then 35 positions
around town for VB and VB.Net not a one for C#. Are you crediting Husan
with starting the thread now?

This is why professional pollsters spen a lot of time and get paid huge
amount of money, because the know exactly how to phrase the question
being asked of the respondant and they know exactly how to build a
reliable sample frame so they don't get skewed data.

On the accuracy of polls and surveys (as published in Science magazine):
http://www.stevetoner.com/handouts/Assessing_the_Accuracy_of_Polls_and_Surveys.pdf

Columbia News reports "markets show greater accuracy than polls"
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/news/04/10/markets.html

They make very few assumptions if they can help it, as this affects the
margin of error of the poll. The less assumptions made and the more
specifc the question, the more reliable the results.

I will just end my involvement in this thready by saying that although we
disagree sharply on this, debating with you has remaind cordial and I
appreciate your not getting personal.

Good luck Tom!

Fair enough.





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