Re: Can you write code directly in CIL ???

Your benchmarking on perfomance is bit off posting to posting. If it is 100
lines of code in asm then surely it will be performing better but how many
lines of .NET conversion of it. But if you are saying 100 lines of code in
..Net then I wonder how many lines of instruction code your .net code is
creating to execute it several million times in a given second or 10 of a
second or which ever benchmark is correct.

Well anyways, seems like you know the ground you are playing on so for the
answer for your original question, yes you can write the whole program in
IL. I will be interested in knowing how you optimized it.




"Peter Olcott" <olcott@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:4S4sf.37937$QW2.7702@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Not only will it run several million times every second, but, it will
> constantly access all of its memory. Can I write a .NET component using
> purely unmanaged code? That would seem to be a contradiction in terms.
>
> "Pohihihi" <noemail@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:e6$JcnqCGHA.916@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> IMHO and according to the following link GC is way better than
>> traditional memory mgmt. If method is running many million times a second
>> (really??) then GC will keep it. But as Nicholas said, running of GC is a
>> overhead and it is in control of CLR. Just because your code knows how
>> much memory it needs it really do not mean that it will always have that
>> in hand. Again GC is god here. If you want control of your code and how
>> it behaves than leave managed environment and go for traditional
>> C++/C/ASM route, or as suggested Interop.
>>
>> http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dndotnet/html/dotnetperftechs.asp
>> section -->
>> "Myth: Garbage Colloction Is Always Slower Than Doing It by Hand"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Nicholas Paldino [.NET/C# MVP]" <mvp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote
>> in message news:%23YB$FaqCGHA.3820@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Peter,
>>>
>>> You are missing the point completely. If you implement your code as
>>> managed code, even in IL, you can't stop a GC no matter what. Your
>>> thread is going to be pre-empted (in most situations, except if you have
>>> the GC running on a separate thread) and it WILL stop and it WILL affect
>>> your performance when it happens.
>>>
>>> Just because your code knows how much memory it needs doesn't mean
>>> that you can pre-empt a GC. If it happens, it's going to happen, and
>>> there is nothing you can do about it. Your 100-line function isn't
>>> going to be able to stop it, and the CLR isn't going to care what your
>>> function is doing.
>>>
>>> You can't just pretend its not going to happen. It does, and it
>>> will, and you can't stop it. This isn't a choice you have if you are
>>> running managed code, whether you do it in IL or not.
>>>
>>> This is what it means to have ^managed^ code. The CLR is going to
>>> provide a good number of services, but you are going to have to pay for
>>> them, and should be aware of how they impact your code.
>>>
>>> This is why I recommended that you use interop with your unmanaged
>>> code. You will have your performance requirements fufilled, and not have
>>> to worry about doing something that will ultimately be self-defeating.
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Nicholas Paldino [.NET/C# MVP]
>>> - mvp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>
>>> "Peter Olcott" <olcott@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>> news:GV3sf.37927$QW2.2410@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>
>>>> "Nicholas Paldino [.NET/C# MVP]" <mvp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> wrote in message news:uvvaatpCGHA.4004@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>
>>>>> You don't understand a fundamental concept to .NET and CIL. Yes,
>>>>> there are compilers that will perform optimization of IL to a certain
>>>>> degree.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, when the managed code is run, the CLR will take the CIL
>>>>> and then compile it into native code. At this point in time, it is
>>>>> free to optimize, or not optimize, or mangle your code in any way you
>>>>> want when making the transition from CIL to native code.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you are dealing with assembly language in general, you have
>>>>> complete control of what is going on, memory allocation, deallocation,
>>>>> execution, etc, etc. With the CLR, this is taken out of your hands to
>>>>> a degree.
>>>>
>>>> I don't care about these things they are not effecting my performance.
>>>> What is effecting my performance are things such as the compiler
>>>> failing to inline my functions code, and unnecessary overhead in the
>>>> translation of a switch statement. My function will be always executed
>>>> several million times every second. It must run concurrently with other
>>>> applications.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For example, have you considered, what happens when a Garbage
>>>>> Collection (GC) occurs while your function is running? If it is in
>>>>> complete managed code, then there is nothing that you can do about it,
>>>>> and your function will resume running when the GC is complete.
>>>>> Depending on what is happening on the machine at the time, combined
>>>>> with what your program is doing, etc, etc, it is very feasible that
>>>>> your code will take more than 1/10th of a second.
>>>> My code knows exactly how much memory it needs at load time. It needs
>>>> all of this memory the whole time that it executes. It would make no
>>>> sense to have any garbage collection of my code's memory in this case.
>>>> I want my code to be implemented as a .ET component.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just because it looks like assembly language, don't assume that CIL
>>>>> is assembly language. There are some very different things going on
>>>>> under the hood.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Nicholas Paldino [.NET/C# MVP]
>>>>> - mvp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>
>>>>> "Peter Olcott" <olcott@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>> news:xj2sf.37906$QW2.34052@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>I want to be able to stick with purely managed code, if possible. I
>>>>>>just need this 100 line function to run as fast as if it was hand
>>>>>>tweaked assembly language. I have examined CIL, for the most part it
>>>>>>is essentially assembly language. From what I understand any
>>>>>>optimizations take place before the CIL is generated. When I designed
>>>>>>this system (in 1998) I had hand tweaked assembly language in mind for
>>>>>>this crucial function all along.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Nicholas Paldino [.NET/C# MVP]" <mvp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> wrote in message news:%23RjK3$oCGHA.2040@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not at all. When the CLR gets a hold of the JIT, it is free to
>>>>>>> perform any optimizations it deems necessary, and that might not
>>>>>>> necessarily be in line with what you are expecting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My recommendation would be to use Managed C++ to create a wrapper
>>>>>>> to your unmanaged code which uses It Just Works (IJW, seriously).
>>>>>>> You should get a managed interface, and the best possible
>>>>>>> performance (for this specific situation, not all situations)
>>>>>>> between managed an unmanaged code.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> - Nicholas Paldino [.NET/C# MVP]
>>>>>>> - mvp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Peter Olcott" <olcott@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:_51sf.37898$QW2.37853@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>I need the best possible execution speed. I have found that there is
>>>>>>>>a large difference in the quality of the code generated by the
>>>>>>>>various compilers. I have 16,000 hours of development time in my
>>>>>>>>current project. There is a 100 line function that must take no
>>>>>>>>longer than 1/10 second to execute. I can just barely achieve this
>>>>>>>>with MSVC++ 6.0. MSVC++ 7.0 has had some of its optimizations
>>>>>>>>disabled. I eventually will need to port this to C# .NET. This is a
>>>>>>>>case where hand tweaked assembly language would be appropriate. I
>>>>>>>>figured that hand tweaked CIL would be the .NET equivalent of hand
>>>>>>>>tweaked assembly language.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Nicholas Paldino [.NET/C# MVP]" <mvp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> wrote in message news:OCvd7unCGHA.2644@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> Peter,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You can write it, but you would have to create a module with
>>>>>>>>> IL, and then compile that into your assembly (or just write the
>>>>>>>>> whole assembly).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also, what optimizations do you think you can make?
>>>>>>>>> Ultimately, you suffer from the fact that Windows is not a
>>>>>>>>> real-time OS, and nothing you can do will change that. On top of
>>>>>>>>> that, the JIT is what's going to optimize your code again after
>>>>>>>>> you try to, so you might actually end up hurting yourself more
>>>>>>>>> than helping yourself.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you post the code you are trying to optimize, we can try and
>>>>>>>>> tell you where you might make some improvements, but dipping down
>>>>>>>>> to the IL level is most likely not going to help you much.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> - Nicholas Paldino [.NET/C# MVP]
>>>>>>>>> - mvp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Peter Olcott" <olcott@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:7t%rf.37887$QW2.9998@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>> Cab you write code directly in the Common Intermediate language?
>>>>>>>>>> I need to optimize a critical real-time function.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>


.

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