Re: MCSD and MCSE

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Hi Scott,

Thanks for the conversation. GL to you as well.

--
Dave Sexton

"Scott M." <s-mar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:e2K59Bh%23GHA.1128@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Well, let me close out my thoughts on this topic with comments contrary to
my own thus far (just to make sure I don't get in trouble with the fine
certified folks around here)....

As much as I have had several bad experiences with MS certified people in
the past, I have also worked with some very talented and knowledable
MCSD/E's over the years. But, in the end, the people I know who are real
guru's didn't need the cert to prove that to me.

Good luck Dave!

-Scott


"Dave Sexton" <dave@jwa[remove.this]online.com> wrote in message
news:uwWqFHf%23GHA.4544@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Hi Scott,

Well I do appreciate your insight into one POV, however typical or
unconventional it might be. It has prompted me to really analyze whether I
think certification should hold any merit, and to be perfectly honest, from
this conversation alone I have lowered the regard in which I hold
certifications, somewhat. I'll be searching for employees at some point
(if I'm lucky enough to acquire another client :) and I'll take your advice
then.

I must say that it's a bit disconcerting to me that even neutral
certification providers aren't establishing tests that really set apart
those that know the material from those that don't, in your experiences.
After all, if companies are going to test certified people on their own,
then I completely understand why certification might not be very important
to them. And I've always recommended testing potential employees anyway.
Therefore, I think that certifications should be more difficult to achieve
so that companies can feel satisfied that they don't have to rigorously
test the candidates that hold the certs. But I'm sure it would take a long
time and a lot of proven candidates before your convinced that certs have
any merit.

I'm still surprised you have found so many people that acquired
certifications and couldn't "walk the walk", which I assumed to be quite
difficult for novice programmers to achieve. When I passed the MCAD tests
I asked the woman at the testing facility how my scores compared to the
general scores she's witnessed in the past and she said that mine were
higher than usual (not saying this just to stroke my ego; I have enough
experience where I'd just have given up if I got anything less :), and that
most people get about 10% higher than the minimum passing grade. So it
seems that us validated certificate holders might benefit if they just
raised the minimum passing grade, assuming of course that the majority of
candidates that couldn't "walk the walk" just passed within that ~10%.

But I still believe that certifications should hold at least some merit in
job hunting. Maybe that's just wishful thinking since I'm certified and
plan to acquire more certifications in the future, but I won't be looking
for jobs anytime soon, just clients - and clients don't necessarily know
what tech HR people know - maybe that will work to my advantage. But at
least in my case, I hope, my certifications aren't misleading to clients or
even HR people for that matter. Unfortunately, it seems that others have
made it so by leaning only on the certificates they have acquired, and
that's a shame. I have only the elective remaining to achieve MCSD, and
I'm planning on getting MCPD, as time permits. I hope the MCPD tests are
much harder than those for MCAD, but I will say that I didn't find the MSF
test to be so easy and I believe that many of the programmers I know
wouldn't pass that test even after studying for a month (and I mean that
with all due respect :)

--
Dave Sexton

"Scott M." <s-mar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:e$vej4d%23GHA.4376@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Hi Dave,

And I assume that these HR people you speak of hold resumes in a higher
regard than certifications and degrees. I really don't understand that
line of thought.

Degrees carry weight, certs do not (for me and many others - not
everybody). Resumes can, and certainly are padded often, but a good
interveriewer can generally weed out the fluff and get to the related work
experience that is relevant. And, work experience (if verifiable through
references) is worth more than any degree or cert to an interviewer.

So, what criteria do you base your decision on inviting someone from a
large pool of candidates, none of which you have met or even spoken to,
into your office (or online) for a skill assessment?

Verifiable work experience (not, I was the Cheif Software Architect, but
the company is out of business and I don't have any references), length of
time in the field and degrees attained. Once I get them in the door for
an interview, I'll ask technical questions and see if they can "talk the
talk". If I like the candidate, I'll either ask them to take a written
skills assesment or give them an assignment to complete that can
demonstrate to me that they can "walk the walk".

For me, the cert means nothing. It doesn't factor in at all. This is
based on my previous experiences (many) with cert holders and I'm
certainly aware that, for others (like yourself), the cert carries some
weight. But, as I said in my first reply, I don't believe that a cert
truly shows a prospective employer much.

-Scott








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