Re: MCSD and MCSE

Well, I do happen to have quite a bit of experience in HR (with a specialty
in recruitment and selection). If I am looking for a software developer,
engineer or architect, I will put in requirements for applicants such as
college degrees and minimum experience requirements. Those are the things
that will weed out the folks without the minimum requisites I am looking
for.

Now, if I had 2 applicants with identical backgrounds and one had the certs
and one didn't, I have to tell you that the certs wouldn't, in any way,
shift my focus to the one that has them. I've just seen too many people
that have the certs, but not the skills & knowledge.

I would (as most tech empoyers do) give each applicant either a test of my
own or ask them to provide examples (not written, code) of projects they
have worked on and solutions they have created.

It's just my opinion, and I am in NO WAY saying that anyone who has a cert
doesn't have knowledge. I'm simply saying that a cert doesn't tell me what
"skills" and "experience" they have. And, that's what I need to know if I'm
hiring someone.

:)

-Scott

"Dave Sexton" <dave@jwa[remove.this]online.com> wrote in message
news:emd$gvT%23GHA.5092@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Hi Scott,

I hear you Dave, I just disagree that you can say (with any generality)
whether or not a cert holder knows more than a non-cert holder.

I think experienced human resource personnel would disagree.

The mantra that has worked well for me in these situations is "show me
what you can do" don't "tell me what you can do".

I agree that's a better approach to finding the right employees for the
job than hiring only on the criteria of certifications and degrees. The
point is, who do you ask to show you what they can do? I would choose a
person with a cert or degree over someone without, because the person that
possesses the credentials are telling you what they can do and that's the
first step. The question I posed before tries to clear up whether or not
certs actually tell an employer what the person can do, and that's why
I've asked for feedback from people with a lot of experience interviewing
job candidates with and without certifications and degrees, but my
experience tells me that MCSDs are generally better solution developers.

Resumes are complete nonsense and I think they should be generally ignored
by any serious employers as credentials. Certs and degrees fill in the
spot nicely because they are neutral, just like SSL certs. They also look
nice on a wall if they aren't damaged during shipment :)

--
Dave Sexton

"Scott M." <s-mar@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:u42qFiT%23GHA.1224@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I hear you Dave, I just disagree that you can say (with any generality)
whether or not a cert holder knows more than a non-cert holder.

The mantra that has worked well for me in these situations is "show me
what you can do" don't "tell me what you can do".


"Dave Sexton" <dave@jwa[remove.this]online.com> wrote in message
news:eW3YpkS%23GHA.3456@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Hi Scott,

[Just having some knowledge, e.g., enough to pass the tests, isn't
usually
enough to potential employers so I guess the real question is, are MCSDs
generally more knowledgeable and experienced than those without
certification?]

I think only those experienced in interviewing could accurately answer
this

I think you've hit the nail on the head with this. My experience tells
me that employers care about what you know and what you can do for
them, cert or no cert. For programmers anyway, most employers ask for
examples of programs that the candidate has written or worked on and
ask them to explain their solution. Some employers give a "test" of
their own during an interview to weed the "talk the talkers" from the
"walk the walkers".

True, but I was just stating that I think experienced interviewers know
better if MCSDs commonly "walk the walk" and whether those that aren't
certified generally just "talk the talk". In my limited experience
working with MCSDs and interviewing people in general, both points seem
to be true. If so then employers would benefit from holding MCSDs in a
higher regard over the general population of developers.

--
Dave Sexton








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