Re: Java and .NET (no Flames Pls)
From: Joe Lentrichia (jlentrichia(nospam)_at_hotmail.com)
Date: 09/17/04
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Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:23:07 -0700
Not sure what astroturfing is but I apologize for my ignorance or offending
if I did. =) Your points are well made and thanks for the info.
I don't consider myself an MS loonie, I'm just expressing an opinion based
on what I have seen and experienced. I have done both Java and C#
development and I think it's amazing the short time-frame .NET has been able
to come up to speed and be a legitimate contender for enterprise level
applications (web in my experience).
I don't think I said there shouldn't be standards, particularly with respect
to communication protocols (HTTP, SOAP, etc). I am just saying it takes more
time for a large group of individuals from different organizations with
different priorities to agree on a common API. I think it should be
commended instead of condemned that C#/ASP.NET 2.0 has come out in such a
short period of time. Much can be said in the opposite for Sun with Java.
Who is being pressured from all angles to either make it open source or sell
it to IBM because of it's slow progression between versions. More often than
not they are just bundling libraries with the SDK that were already available
for download before (security libs, etc.).
Clearly MS has an agenda to make money and making their products first and
foremost work on Windows Servers is a big profit gain for them. They have
always been in the business of business but that doesn't really bother me as
long as their tools and products work.
"Mike Newton" wrote:
> It's not a matter of sides. You can be proficient in C#, but also
> understand that it isn't always the best tool for the job. You can also
> be good at C#, and be a bigger fan of java.
>
> I think this bit here is the biggest poison that infects MS loonies:
>
> "I think the biggest obstacle for .NET and MS as a whole to overcome is
> the ingrained concept in some developers mind that all MS products suck
> (not true), and that MS has lots of security issues (somewhat true), and
> most of all the general hatred because they have a monopoly on the
> desktop/office market. They also get a bad rap for being "proprietary"
> when in actuality they are pushing the envelope and just not waiting for
> a panel of "experts" to "standardize" the API they happen to be working
> on. And for this reason Visual Studio has superior support for Web
> Services."
>
> Open standards are what drive technology. Take TCP/IP for example, or
> HTTP, HTML, CSS, PNG, etc. These are things that have a set format or
> API, and are *not going to change.* This basically means that we can
> stop worrying about how such and such is supposed to be implemented at
> this point in time, and start worrying about making the existing
> implementation more efficient, or start worrying about more important
> things.
>
> MS is not pushing the envelope by any means when it comes to open
> standards. They've submitted the C# language and got it ISO certified,
> but now C# 2.0 is out. They didn't standardize the framework libraries,
> many of which contain patented material (I'm not going to even approach
> the validity of software patents). When you patent something, you're
> trying to make sure that you have a legal monopoly on selling that item
> for a set amount of time. It is a version of "proprietary."
>
> The panel of "experts" that you refer to is what you rely on every day.
> If it weren't for these "experts," then you'd have a number of
> different servers that speak in different languages, and may or may not
> understand each other. You'd be able to talk to IIS, for instance, but
> maybe not access Hotmail (which, I believe, is still based on BSD).
> Then again, these "experts" were around when the industry started, or
> they built the infrastructure for the industry themselves. Let's just
> call them "experts," because they don't deserve any more respect than
> that. </sarcasm>
>
> Visual Studio is a good tool, no doubt about it. Does it, however, work
> in the same way with mono? Apache? The problem of creating an end-all
> tool like Visual Studio, as easy to use as it is, is that you've got
> platform lock. Someone else is making the decision for you, as to what
> web server you're going to use, or what operating system you are going
> to run. That is, if you really really want to use visual studio. For
> those who don't want to be confined to an extremely small set of
> platforms, they choose to go with a tool that promises to work with many.
>
> Eclipse, for instance, is open sourced. It has a board-standardized
> plugin API, and a number of plugins exist for it. Eclipse, in effect,
> has much more flexibility and extensibility than Visual Studio does. It
> doesn't have an embedded WYSIWYG HTML editor, nor does it seamlessly
> integrate with web servers by default. It does have a java debugger,
> though. Everything else is handled by plugins, and I'm certain that
> there are HTML plugins, web service plugins, visual form editing tools,
> UML, etc.
>
> One last thing, just an FYI, to tell the truth. It isn't the web server
> that has debugging built in. When you're debugging a web service in
> ..NET, or ASP.NET, you're interacting with the .NET runtime, not the web
> server. When the web server sees that you're requesting a .NET type
> page, it passes the request off to the runtime, which processes the
> request itself. In this respect, yes, you can debug java web servlets
> and services, since you can debug through the virtual machine.
>
> Sorry... this is a bit of a rant, but astroturfing without knowing both
> sides of the equation is rather frustrating.
>
>
>
> Joe Lentrichia wrote:
> > Jon, it seems you are much in favor of java. Why then, I ask, are you a C#
> > MVP?
> >
> > I agree with all your statements. Except the last one where a consumer of a
> > .NET webservice might not be able to. I haven't seen this, unless perhaps
> > you're talking about returning a DataSet, in which case I have to argue that
> > the benefits outweigh the consumption downfalls. Even a DataSet can be
> > consumed tho I believe.
> >
> > I will download Eclipse and give it a try next time I'm doing some Java code
> > (likely next month) just on your recommendations alone. Some things I will
> > look for: Does it contain a WYSIWYG HTML editor? Does it have an integrated
> > WS proxy generator? Interactive debugging, with a built in web server? Good
> > debugging features: watches, etc.
> >
> > One other thing, and this is strictly a preference nothing to do really with
> > support (although you could argue perhaps some sense of abstraction) is
> > Properties of a class instead of getters and setters. I was having a funny
> > conversation with a Java programmer and he mistakenly thought that Properties
> > were a violation of encapsulation, until I told him that they weren't
> > internal data being accessed directly. (eg: Java: getThisProp{}
> > setThisProp{}, C#: ThisProp{ get: set: };
> >
> >
> > "Jon Skeet [C# MVP]" wrote:
> >
> >
> >> <"=?Utf-8?B?Sm9lIExlbnRyaWNoaWE=?=" <jlentrichia(nospam)@hotmail.com>>
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>>I like .NET over Java for a couple of reasons. The primary thing is the
> >>>wealth of libraries that all the languages individually (VB, C++, etc) used
> >>>to have that you can now access from any of the .NET languages.
> >>
> >>Well, Java has a pretty huge wealth of libraries too. (And it's not
> >>just Java that targets the JVM, although that's easily the biggest
> >>language using it, of course.)
> >>
> >>
> >>>I like C#
> >>>because I think the performance is great (primarily as a result of an
> >>>excellently well written compiler).
> >>
> >>The C# compiler has little to do with performance - it's fairly simple,
> >>I believe. The JIT and the libraries are what really drive performance
> >>in .NET.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Finally I think Visual Studio is still unmatched. I haven't used Eclipse,
> >>>but I have used JBuilder and NetBeans and both are really slow (mainly
> >>>because they are built on Swing).
> >>
> >>If you haven't used Eclipse you can't sensibly claim that Visual Studio
> >>is unmatched. Consider what your opinion of an Eclipse fan would be if
> >>they said that Eclipse is unmatched but that they hadn't used Visual
> >>Studio.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Swing was/is a really bad idea, they
> >>>finally got it right when they started implementing UI features in the native
> >>>API's of the respective OS.
> >>
> >>Have you used Swing recently? It's come on in leaps and bounds in the
> >>last couple of releases, and I gather the new release due soon is even
> >>better in this sense. Swing can be very slow when written badly, but
> >>can perform well if properly handled.
> >>
> >>
> >>>I think the biggest obstacle for .NET and MS as a whole to overcome is the
> >>>ingrained concept in some developers mind that all MS products suck (not
> >>>true), and that MS has lots of security issues (somewhat true), and most of
> >>>all the general hatred because they have a monopoly on the desktop/office
> >>>market. They also get a bad rap for being "proprietary" when in actuality
> >>>they are pushing the envelope and just not waiting for a panel of "experts"
> >>>to "standardize" the API they happen to be working on. And for this reason
> >>>Visual Studio has superior support for Web Services.
> >>
> >>Interesting - I thought one of the criticisms levelled at Microsoft's
> >>version of web services was that it went beyond the standard, thus
> >>making it impossible for some standard web service consumers to consume
> >>all .NET web services. I'm not sure I consider that superior support.
> >>
> >>--
> >>Jon Skeet - <skeet@pobox.com>
> >>http://www.pobox.com/~skeet
> >>If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
> >>
>
- Next message: Pierre: "dotnet framework 1.1 install question"
- Previous message: Ming Chen: "Re: How instance of the same class share the code"
- In reply to: Mike Newton: "Re: Java and .NET (no Flames Pls)"
- Next in thread: Derek Thornton: "RE: Java and .NET (no Flames Pls)"
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