Re: Exam 70-305

Do you program with that logic?

> Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the subject.

There is a distinct difference between rhetoric and logic/fact. There is
nothing rhetorical in what I wrote. I feel passionate about programming, and
about people who want to better themselves at programming. Programming is an
admirable profession, and wanting to better one's self is an admirable goal.
Your reply is quite long as well. What exactly floats *your* boat?
Bitterness and anger?

> The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations by
> definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning during the
> course of such preparation.

I believe I logically pointed out the difference in quality between knowing
a lot and knowing how to find out what one needs to know when one needs to
know it. I also pointed out that problem-solving is much more valuable than
a volume of knowledge, in the programming biz. While you may disagree,
perhaps you might like to support your argument with some fact and/or logic.
Otherwise, you are simply exhaling noisily.

> I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
> thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
> producing well written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed
> from having gone through the process.

I don't believe I suggested anything with regards to what you may or may not
have said. I care nothing for how I am thought of, except by those to whom I
am accountable, for example, my wife, my boss, and God. And I never
mentioned anything about the value of being thought highly of by anyone. You
are imagining things.

> I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not,
> and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who have them,
> I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of the challenge,
> would be rather snobbish to say the least and down right arrogant to say
> the most.

Again, I did not imply that I "look down on" anyone. You are reading things
into my message that I did not say. My criticism was with regards to the
efficacy of certification exams, and with the usefulness of taking and/or
passing them.

> I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate your wit,
> courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the bloody, savage
> and brutalistic struggles seen in countless project battlegrounds in the
> IT Amphitheatre.

Another mistaken mis-interpretation. My point was that I speak from
experience, and I provided evidence from my own experience to make the
argument. A proposition of an idea without some evidence to justify the idea
is nothing more than exhaling noisily. I try to avoid that. There are enough
opinions floating around this planet to cause global warming. If you write
programs with that many assumptions, they must surely be unstable.

> Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than
> yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have twelve
> years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding skirmishes to
> be considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to simply settle at
> this point for going through Microsoft's own certification system.

You've got issues, Mac, "Mr. Newbie," or should I say "Mr. Safely
Anonymous." What are you afraid of? It is easy enough to take potshots at
people from behind the safety of anonymity. And just as cowardly.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
A watched clock never boils.

"Mr Newbie" <here@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:OiYTVgW3FHA.4076@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Your rhetoric is exhaustive; you must feel passionate about the subject.
> Whilst I see the intellectual merit of some of your points, your argument
> completely fails to address my point.
>
> To say that the Microsoft Certification Process is 'meaningless' is simply
> 'Incorrect'
>
> The fact that one 'strives' to pass an exam by using study preparations by
> definition means that one must 'learn' or assures ones learning during the
> course of such preparation. The only exception would be when one has
> already achieved such knowledge prior to the exam by other means, in which
> case the only reason to have taken it would have either been to prove to a
> third party or oneself that one has achieved this badge of merit.
>
> I have never said that the exam certificate is a predicate to being
> thought of as professional or to be seen as able in the science of
> producing well written software, but nevertheless, one cannot be harmed
> from having gone through the process.
>
> I propose that it is better to have achieved the certificates than not,
> and whilst you personally may be more proficient than those who have them,
> I think to look down on those who have run the gauntlet of the challenge,
> would be rather snobbish to say the least and down right arrogant to say
> the most.
>
> I'm pleased that you feel able to wear colours which demonstrate your wit,
> courage, determination and heroism earned in fighting the bloody, savage
> and brutalistic struggles seen in countless project battlegrounds in the
> IT Amphitheatre.
>
> Have a thought for those lesser mortals who are so much less able than
> yourself, and who aspire to your elevated position, but don't have twelve
> years or so to spend on the gut wrenching ardours of coding skirmishes to
> be considered worthy to wear your colours, and have to simply settle at
> this point for going through Microsoft's own certification system.
>
>
> HTH
>
>
>
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:%23DdOL8V3FHA.3588@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Until now at least, the certification process has been meaningless. The
>> development world is hideously complex, and even knowing the answers to
>> all of the questions in an exam doesn't prepare one for the experience of
>> real-world development. Only the experience itself does. In other words,
>> using a carpenter as an analogy, there is a difference between knowing
>> what all of one's tools are, how they work, what they are used for, and
>> how to read a blueprint, and knowing how to build houses.
>>
>> All development projects are different, and present different and unique
>> challenges to the developer. In my experiences, Murphy is a constant
>> companion. I am constantly barraged by new situations, requirements that
>> exceed my skill set, problems I have never encountered before, and I've
>> been programming for a dozen years.
>>
>> A certification exam can measure certain things, and is useful for
>> measuring those things, and those things only. Among the most critical
>> skills required by any developer are problem-solving skill, logic,
>> creative thinking, anal attention to detail, a measure of healthy
>> paranoia, and dogged persistence. Until now, I have not seen
>> certification exams which are able to measure most of these things. I
>> have not seen certification exams which do measure the ones which can be
>> measured (such as problem-solving and logic).
>>
>> It is not very important to know a lot. After all, "a lot" is a
>> non-specific quantity. Without a frame of reference, it is meaningless.
>> It is *critically* important to be able to find out a lot, and to be able
>> to do so quickly. I'd love to see an exam which involved playing "20
>> questions." THAT would be a good measurement criteria!
>>
>> The best developers I have known and worked with most often had little or
>> no formal training, and either had not taken any certification exams, or
>> had taken them as a requirement of their job, and for no other reason.
>> Programming is a high-salary job. Many people are going to want to make
>> the kind of money that can be made doing it. Among them, only a select
>> few are "born programmers" or have the self-discipline and persistence to
>> acquire these skills and qualities.
>>
>> Most people don't realize it, but it requires less work over a lifetime
>> to become a Doctor. While there is a period of some years during which an
>> aspiring Doctor has to work his/her proverbial *** off, after that, it
>> is fairly easy to keep up with the advances in the trade. Most Doctors
>> are specialists of one sort or another, and only need to keep up with a
>> limited set of knowledge. They have nurses and other lower-paid medical
>> technicians to do most of their work for them. And the human body isn't
>> re-designed every 5 or 10 years.
>>
>> As for me, and others like me (you know who you are), I spend as much
>> time studying as I do developing. And I feel like I can never manage to
>> keep up, even though I do, by comparison, overall. Fortunately for me, I
>> love to learn. I love a challenge. I can endure almost any stress except
>> for boredom. Math, Logic, and Science are the greatest loves of my life,
>> with the (possible) exception of my wife. ;-)
>>
>> But how many people who aspire to make the big bucks have similar traits?
>> Many aspiring developers are people who saw an ad for "Some Technical
>> Institute" on tv, and bought into the hype. They are in it for the money.
>> There are as many hack developers out there as there are hack car
>> mechanics, hack politicians, and hack lawyers. Some of these are very
>> good at passing certification exams.
>>
>> I have never taken one. Why?
>>
>> 1. I have never needed to. I have always acquired work by virtue of my
>> accomplishments (A good portfolio is worth a thousand certificates).
>> 2. I have never been required to by a job that I've held.
>> 3. I have been too busy studying and performing to take the time for an
>> exam.
>> 4. Taking the above into consideration, I have never wanted to take one
>> "for fun." Taking an exam is not my idea of fun. The real exam is my
>> everyday life.
>>
>> Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' with it!
>>
>> --
>> HTH,
>>
>> Kevin Spencer
>> Microsoft MVP
>> .Net Developer
>> A watched clock never boils.
>>
>> "Mr Newbie" <here@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:e23XTdS3FHA.1596@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>I think that not withstanding the colourfull language used, she has a
>>>point !
>>>
>>> For someone who has had no real experience with the technology it would
>>> be impossible to pass the exam cold. Therefore to at least work through
>>> the MS or other preperation material has merit in terms of study time
>>> applied and the will and focus to actually schedule and realize the exam
>>> iteself.
>>>
>>> Therfore I beleive in the merit of this process, however I take your
>>> points regarding the potential for the results to skew the underlying
>>> aptitude.
>>>
>>> For someone who already knows the technology, of course the exams would
>>> probably be fairly mechanical, especially for someone like yourself who
>>> is obviously an experienced person in this field.
>>>
>>> I hope that I do make the grade and go on to better things. I view it as
>>> a stepping stone.
>>>
>>> And thanks for all the replies to my post.
>>>
>>> Thanks Again .. Mr Newbie
>>>
>>>
>>> "Guadala Harry" <GMan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>> news:OzXG08O3FHA.3600@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Your post is confusing. I'm a developer who has passed 13 of these
>>>> tests and I'm sure you read my post explaining the lack of objective
>>>> meaning... and then you make your sweeping statement???
>>>>
>>>> Also, please don't post profanity here. Unlike the SQL Programming NG
>>>> and others, this one is fairly civil. We'd like to keep it that way.
>>>>
>>>> -GH
>>>>
>>>> "Tina" <tinamseaburn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>> news:ex3tk3O3FHA.3188@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> My experience is that developers who say these test mean nothing are
>>>>> afraid to take them or maybe not up to the effort to study for them.
>>>>> Just because you pass the bar does not mean you are an excellent
>>>>> lawyer but it is evidence that you are not some dumb ***.
>>>>>
>>>>> T :)
>>>>>
>>>>> "Mr Newbie" <here@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>> news:uU6QhuL3FHA.268@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Im going to be looking to do this exam fairly soon, but ive done a
>>>>>> couple of practice tests and found them to be a bit tricky in as much
>>>>>> as you have to REALLY READ the questions carefully else they trip you
>>>>>> up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When you have four multi choice and each one has 8 lines of code, its
>>>>>> like looking at those damn near identicle picture and spotting the
>>>>>> difference. Its almost as if they expect you to have an on line help
>>>>>> in your head !!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How did others get on with it ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers Mr N
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PS: Im going to hook up my positronic relay to a Sub Dermal Borg
>>>>>> Neural Node Interlink transmitter and connect to the billion tera
>>>>>> quads of help provided with VS2003, this should help. If not I'm
>>>>>> going to re-route all emergency power to my cebral cortex and blow my
>>>>>> friggin head off!!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :))
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>


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