Re: There has to be a better way to develop web applications.
- From: "RCS" <rseder@xxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2005 14:47:35 GMT
I don't know if you're serious - but I'll respond anyhow.
This is like anything else you'd do with programming - you have to take some
time, to set up some templates/standards/etc - so that you can later "crank
out" applications with ease. We needed to do the same thing with a sort of a
tab/subtab layout - that we've used for the past 6+ years in ASP. We
initially spent about 4 months making a tabbed-type layout that was
extensible and integrated with our single-signon.. so that after that, it
was a matter of making up a logo, changing the CSS classes, layout your
tabs - and start development.
So - these technologies aren't so much the enemy - as they are your friend -
to help you do your job. And it only behooves you to know these. It doesn't
matter if it were big technology called "Bob" with 8 sub-categories - or if
it's called 8 different names. The things you mentioned below are the
elements of what it takes to write applications.
As for XML overhead - I think you have have needed to come through the "flat
file" era of computing to see the advantage. For years (and sadly, still
today) - companies pass text files (like comma-seperated or tab-seperated
text files) back and forth. Think about this. How do you get that data into
your database? Well - most would start by writing a parser - to turn those
"hopefully it's the right format" file, into meaningful database fields.
Most people write what I call a "write-once/use-once" parser. You write a
parser specific to that file. You could obviously also spend time making a
more flexible parser, but it needs to be robust. The core problem with a
hand-written parser is that it not only needs to handle all the things you
can think of... it also needs to handle the things you can't think of.
Like - what if you get an end-of-file right in the middle of a record.. what
if there is text in the presumed date/time field.. etc, etc, etc, etc. So
for people who lived through that headache - XML is just staggering. Yes -
there is a little bit of size overhead (not that it matters in these days of
nearly unlimited RAM and disk space) - but there is one parser. The XML
parser. Which, right off the bat - if it's not valid XML, it won't even
load!! Then, you can apply a schema - and XML will check to make sure you
have "exactly one" of these elements and one or more of these elements. So
it's become an infinitely more efficient way to process foreign files - and
files from different computing environments.
HTML forms ARE bad. Especially in an ASP.NET environment. The main reason,
is that it becomes very difficult to keep "user state". That is, "who is
this user and exaclty what are they doing". Which, on a single ASP page for
example, is 100% controllable. If you have frames, it would take a
significant chunk of work - to tell the navigation frame if the current
frame is doing anything that should make the navigation change. Because -
the navigation has absolutely-no-idea what is going on in the other frames.
So it's a false sense of integration - it looks like the frames make up a
whole website - but really, it's a couple of completely unrelated pages -
that if you wanted to make them related - would take a significant effort.
And if you are in a situation where you want to "post" to another page in
ASP.NET - I wouldn't spend my time trying to make it work, I would spend my
time thinking *why* I am trying to do that, and see if there is a more
natural way to accomplish what I am trying to do.
Lastly, you say it's a pipedream to use ASP.NET and the .NET Framework to
write applications. First, the .NET Framework is what houses the logic for
ASP.NET, XML, VB.NET, ADO.NET (are they still calling it that?) and
FormAuthentication. But dare I say, you almost don't need to know HTML,
because the design editors are so good now - and you can even drag-and-drop
your database connection/command/etc and technically not do any coding. So
if you are looking for the "good-old-days of point-n-click development" like
MS-Access/VB3/VB6, they've made room for you in VS.NET. But if you want to
embrace these new technologies and use them to leverage your development and
become a more efficient developer, they've done that too.
I've been in hip-deep in .NET since it came out and I have two consistent
thoughts: 1) .NET is the biggest leap in software development and developer
productivity that I've ever seen (see comment below) and 2) This is a great
time to be a developer.
You could argue the first one, that "Java has been around for years and
never got the recognition!". Well, .NET is about the technology (and yes, C#
is pretty much Java) - but it's also about how it's
bundled/sold/trained/etc.. Because the Java people are so caught up in being
open and not locking down developers - they became so open that they can't
accomplish anything. So yes, Microsofts solution is a boxed/shrink-wrapped
solution and they do force the developer to use one tool, etc... but it's
for his own good, because forcing everyone to limit the tools they use,
enables them to make forward progress.
You can either run on one system, and become an advanced, proprietary
system... or you can be an open system, and spend all your time NOT using
any one thing that limits you. In the end, open-systems and forward-progress
are mutually exclusive.
>> I realize I'm learning web development and there is a STEEP learning
>> curve,
>> but so far I've had to learn:
>>
>> HTML
>> XML
>> JavaScript
>> ASP.NET using VB.NET
>> ..NET Framework
>> ADO.NET
>> SSL
>> FormAuthentication
>> (and probably a few more things)
>>
>> Now call me crazy, but this hog pog of languages & technologies is
>> ridiculous!! The simplest of tasks become major R&D efforts (setting the
>> enable state of a control on another ASPX page in a frame for example).
>> And
>> XML, OMG that has got to be the most ineffecient way to write out data
>> I've
>> ever seen -- the overhead is staggering!! So far the research I've seen
>> are
>> "frames are evil" -- great so freakin' helpful. This is just crazy, if
>> the
>> development community has to continue on in this bizarre environment of
>> languages and technology, then web application development is never going
>> to
>> mature and become cost effective for companies to exploit.
>>
>> This is NOT an efficient way to get work done -- just the cost to get
>> developers up to speed on all the technology can doom a project from the
>> start. The pipe dream of using ASP.NET with VB.NET and .NET framework
>> ONLY
>> for web development is just that -- a pipe dream, for only the simplest
>> of
>> applications could anyone get away with just those three
>> technology/tools.
>>
>> I just don't understand -- terms such as portability get tossed around,
>> but
>> the bottom line is, if you elect to use .NET Framework and ASP.NET your
>> bound to MS server OS. And, if this is all done in the name of
>> "portability" (at the cost of performance) how often are you folks moving
>> servers around and changing platforms?? If platforms are changing that
>> frequently, that begs the question why?! It's like building something
>> for
>> 5% that may need it while the majority don't -- so the majority have to
>> take
>> the penalty. There has got to be a better way?
>>
>> Rob.
>>
>>
>>
.
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