Re: an old geezer running visual studio for the first time

Well, TB, of course it's "userunfriendly." It is, however, very
"programmer-friendly." Most programmers I know are very "userunfriendly."
;-)

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.

"TB" <tbpostbox-googlegroups@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:ewXfZ%23bcFHA.2520@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Please refer to my reply to Jeremy.
>
> Anyway, I am beginning to realize that a decision to adopt VS.NET is not
> caused by a love-at-first-sght / wow experience, because it is about the
> most unsexy, userunfriendly program I have seen in a long time. But my
> experience in programming has taught me to keep my eye on the ball, which
> in this case is called long-term productivity gains, a area in which
> VS.NET will hopefully prove its worth.
>
> TB
>
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <kevin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:e%23Tvn$DcFHA.456@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>I agree completely with Jeremy. A good programmer is definitely a control
>>freak, and wants to be in control of his/her app as much as possible. The
>>"training wheels" analogy is perfect. For beginners, these types of tools
>>can be the difference between getting started in ASP.Net and not getting
>>started at all. But they are hardly intended to be a substitute for real
>>hard-core programming, which is why the SDK has articles and tutorials on
>>such subjects as designing and building custom Server Controls, etc. Some
>>of the greatest aspects of Visual Studio.Net is that it can allow one to
>>build something quick and dirty in a short period of time, or it will
>>allow the developer to delve as deeply into the technology as one can go,
>>all the way down to assembler and MSIL if necessary or desired.
>>
>> --
>> HTH,
>>
>> Kevin Spencer
>> Microsoft MVP
>> .Net Developer
>> Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.
>>
>> "Jeremy S" <A@xxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:ejj2gqDcFHA.3040@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Hi TB
>>>
>>> From cruising through your various comments in this thread I gather that
>>> you are very comfortable with the old school way to do things. One
>>> thought is to just stay there. Seriously. If you need to get stuff done,
>>> then might as well just stay where you are most productive (at least
>>> until you are comfortable with the new stuff).
>>>
>>> Now, the new way to do things will involve somewhat of a learning
>>> curve - but once you've traversed it, you'll be *way more* productive
>>> than you ever could have been with the old stuff.
>>>
>>> From your other comments it appears that you view ASP.NET and ADO.NET as
>>> somehow limiting what a developer can do - especially if the developer
>>> wants to "get down and dirty" and write some code. Not true at all. Much
>>> of what you have likely read is touting the "training wheels" that have
>>> been included in Visual Studio - like drag-and-droping DataAdapters into
>>> a visual surface. You should understand that most serious developers (at
>>> least the ones I've met) simply do not use such training wheels. You can
>>> ignore those and dive right into the code. When it comes to ADO.NET -
>>> you can actually write more code than you could have in classic ADO.
>>> Remember .UpdateBatch() in classic ADO? That actually writes a bunch of
>>> dynamic SQL under the covers for you that you never get to manipulate.
>>> ADO.NET actually gives you much more control and more granular control
>>> of inserts, updates, and deletes. I highly recommend to you another book
>>> "ADO.NET" by David Sceppa - Microsoft Press. A "must read" IMHO for
>>> anyone familiar with classic ADO moving to ADO.NET. Sceppa presents the
>>> new stuff and compares/contrasts it with classic ADO. Remember, ADO.NET
>>> is not simply the next version of classic ADO... it's a whole new way to
>>> interface with your data. And, to answer your particular question, yes -
>>> ADO.NET will let you work as easily with PHP as you can with SQL Server,
>>> Oracle, Access, or any other database or data store (even XML files).
>>>
>>> About the starter kits - I recommended the Commerce one because it is,
>>> IMHO, the most straight-forward; it shows you a lot of the nuts-n-bolts.
>>> This is on contrast to the Portal kit which shows some very cool stuff
>>> (like serving up an entire non trivial site through only one aspx
>>> page) - but it's stuff most projects likely won't need.
>>>
>>> -HTH
>>>
>>>
>>> "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegroups@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>> news:eaWTn63bFHA.3492@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Thank your very much for bothering to answer this "old newbie".
>>>>
>>>> I will follow your advice. Particularly I will desect some of the
>>>> sample projects on www.asp.net to learn how code-behind truly works.
>>>> Actually it sounds like an interesting concept, but I supose (without
>>>> knowing anything yet) that there are several degrees of code-behind
>>>> depending on how puritanic you are or how much time you have left to
>>>> finish a job. I guess that it also difficult for .NET developers to
>>>> resist the temptation to get dirty and throw in a bit of inline code
>>>> here and there just to get a project out of the door.
>>>>
>>>> I will also take a serious look at the book you suggest.
>>>>
>>>> Another question, now that I got you "on the line": Is it possible to
>>>> make VS.NET work perfectly / natively / transparently with MySQL?
>>>>
>>>> TB
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Jeffrey Todd" <Me@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>> news:eM04AAsbFHA.1040@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> These 3 suggestions will hopefully help a lot:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Consider developing your aspx and ascx files in FrontPage,
>>>>> Dreamweaver, Notepad, or whatever is your favorite HTML and/or CSS
>>>>> editor - and limit your use of VS.NET to (1) all programming work
>>>>> (code-behind logic) and (2) launching you application for testing
>>>>> purposes. VS.NET 2003 most definitely NOT the place to write HTML - so
>>>>> no need for you to think about grid vs flow layouts. Reason being that
>>>>> VS.NET 2003 will rewrite your HTML for you - often with disastrous
>>>>> results. This link from a Microsoft insider explains:
>>>>> http://blogs.msdn.com/MikhailArkhipov/archive/2004/05/16/132886.aspx
>>>>> The upshot is that many of us use FrontPage or Dreamweaver for all
>>>>> HTML-specific work (i.e., ASPX and ASCX file development) and use
>>>>> VS.NET only for programming/code-behind work. The way I develop is
>>>>> that I keep a copy of Dreamweaver running at all times along side
>>>>> VS.NET 2003 - and switch between the two. One last point here is that
>>>>> VS.NET 2005 - due out in November or so - is expected to no longer
>>>>> have the HTML rendering and management issues that VS.NET 2003 has.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Get this book: Programming ASP.NET - by Dino Esposito - Microsoft
>>>>> Press. It puts everything in context - IMHO ideal for your situation.
>>>>> It's not a step-by-step tutorial, but it is more valuable because
>>>>> tells you how to understand ASP.NET.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. Familiarize yourself with the starter kits at the following link:
>>>>> http://www.asp.net/Default.aspx?tabindex=8&tabid=47. I'd especially
>>>>> recommend that you download and disect the Commerce starter kit. The
>>>>> starter kits are complete ASP.NET Web applications and include all
>>>>> source code - which is very readable and well-documented. The Commerce
>>>>> starter kit is one of the simpler - so it would be a good starting
>>>>> point as it incorporates many fundamentals.
>>>>>
>>>>> -HTH
>>>>>
>>>>> -JT
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "TB" <tbpostbox-googlegroups@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>>>> news:eTCWZ3qbFHA.2212@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Hi all:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you think that the following comments are absolute amateurish,
>>>>>> then please bear with me, or simply skip this thread.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A couple of months back I made the decision to initiate a gradual
>>>>>> upgrade of my web programming skills from Classic ASP / VBS to
>>>>>> ASP.NET / VB.NET.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While the study of the language differences and all the new features
>>>>>> in .NET has so far not been a traumatic experience, I am a bit
>>>>>> shell-schocked after installing and running for the first time Visual
>>>>>> Studio .Net (2003 edition).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Until now I have programmed everything in the old-fashioned way, i.e.
>>>>>> with a bare minimum of tools: a simple editor for coding, a bit of
>>>>>> Frontpage for page layout, and my browser to see the results when
>>>>>> running the page against a local instance of IIS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have done quite a bit web programming, developing anything from
>>>>>> yellow pages to accounting programs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But when I ran VS.NET for the first time, I simply didn't know where
>>>>>> to start.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The program appears to be a sort of Swiss-knife approach to
>>>>>> programming, eliminating the need for external apps. During the past
>>>>>> couple of years I have developed my own little collection of helpers
>>>>>> which I use during development.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> VS.NET creates files for "project mangement". My project management
>>>>>> normally consists notes and diagrams. My reusable code (subs and
>>>>>> functions) is kept in separate files, which I either reference to or
>>>>>> cut/paste - depending on the situation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I normally use a GUI tool (Frontpage for example) to generate a page
>>>>>> layout. In VS.NET I am met with the question whether I want the
>>>>>> designed to be grid-based or flow-based.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Finally, I discovered that VS.NET saves code and html in different
>>>>>> files. I am used to keeping everything together, grouping functions,
>>>>>> subs etc above the <head> tag, and then insert code snippets between
>>>>>> <% %> tags. This approach seems to be frowned upon by VS.NET.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am I an old-fashioned guy? No, because I have made the desicion to
>>>>>> move to .NET, although a bit late perhaps. But I would like to find a
>>>>>> book, a tutorial, anything that can teach this old geezer to use a
>>>>>> new toy which apparently could improve my productivity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any advice / comments from people who may or may not have been
>>>>>> through the same process would be most welcome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TB
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: an old geezer running visual studio for the first time
    ... and wants to be in control of his/her app as much as possible. ... >hard-core programming, which is why the SDK has articles and tutorials on ... >the developer to delve as deeply into the technology as one can go, ... >> can actually write more code than you could have in classic ADO. ...
    (microsoft.public.dotnet.framework.aspnet)
  • Re: OWC pie chart
    ... As a non native english reader, don't assume sarcasm where there is none! ... >> Microsoft MVP ... >> .Net Developer ... >>> Programming is not the process of putting snippets together. ...
    (microsoft.public.dotnet.framework.aspnet)
  • Re: Session problem, users share and switch sessions..?
    ... sort of programming pop terminology, which most people that use it don't ... >> Kevin Spencer ... >> .Net Developer ... >>> private static User RetrieveFromSession() { ...
    (microsoft.public.dotnet.framework.aspnet)
  • Re: User control event problem
    ... Every Control has a member called "Page" which is a reference to the Page it ... >> Kevin Spencer ... >> Microsoft MVP ... >> .Net Developer ...
    (microsoft.public.dotnet.framework.aspnet)
  • Re: Active X Mouse Events
    ... Answer those GDI+ questions with the GDI+ FAQ ... > I am using an axWebBrowser Active X control, ... > Mark Richardson ... > .Net Developer ...
    (microsoft.public.dotnet.framework.drawing)